Bone to pick with new rifle owners - 100 yards out of the box

[RockyMtnMT]

I get to talk with guys on the phone regularly that are trying to learn how to reload on their own. I feel for these guys that don't have a mentor to teach them. For these guys I spend as much time as they want, to help them as much as I can. In a way, I admire them for getting into the game and trying to learn. I think we all owe those new guys as much help and patience as we can give them.

 

[Stang66]

Well: Money can't buy you Skill….seems the the more money one has the less they understand this!
Yes money can buy training but you still need Skill!

 

[Dean2]

First off - I believe every hunter should learn to be the best hunter they can be. That includes shooting well, but also care and handling of the meat, being courteous and professional around other hunters etc. There is a ton to learn, and few folks have the luxury of good mentors to teach it to them anymore. It isn't like it was when most of us were kids. We learned from our Dads, Uncles Grandfathers and friends. Most new hunters don't have that and few experienced hunters are willing to take new hunters along unless they are related or very close friends.

Youtube and forums are what replaces mentors. I am happy to answer questions for new hunters, I also take out quite a few, and rather than make fun of folks, I try to help guys I find struggling at the range because you can teach a lot in a short time. Just showing someone how to bore sight by pulling their bolt, speeds up the learning curve greatly. Teaching them how to breath and squeeze also doesn't take much work. Some on here, may want to give that some thought.

 

[Lenny Foffa]

Very few will believe this story, But on my first Elk hunt, 1979 ,there was a guy who came to camp, with a brand new rifle, in the box, and the brand new scope, in the box. He completely expected 'Somebody" to mount it for him. An unfired , un scoped rife, with the hunt starting in the morning. Some guys should just play golf, and leave rifles alone.

 

[ChrisInKY]

Its because no one who cannot shoot 500 should try to shoot 500. Further more, shooting 600 is not a little harder than 500, its way harder. Just like shooting 1000 is not 2x as hard as shooting 500. NO its 10x harder. Especially in the field!! Especially with untested rifle, ammo, and hunter.

When I teach, I try to explain to folks using their experience with a handgun. How long does it take you to feel confident you can draw and hit a 3" paster @7yds? @15? @25? How many rounds? How many sessions? Ever see that old guy Hickok45 shooting out over a hundred yards with a Glock? Same consideration applies to distance shooting with a rifle.

I often wonder how many people posting in this forum, fire to their max distance frequently enough to 'know' they're a master of that distance ... and how many just automatically qualify themselves because they've shot a target from a bench once or twice. I shoot beside people who say out loud, "Well that shot 'probably' would have killed a deer." Not, "Easy bullseye. I don't want to waste ammo at this range. Let's go somewhere we can shoot to a greater distance."

This coming from a guy who let off a hundred rounds between 500 to 850m this morning just for fun. If you don't shoot ... it's not likely that you're a very good shot. A 500m shot is as effortless for me (with ANY of my rifles) as a pro basketball player making an uncontested layup. At 600m things start getting real and I'm just as likely to pause as I am to send the round. "But it's only another 100m," you say. "No, it's now 600m and a small kill zone," I say.

Most novices don't realize they can't even see a man-sized target 500m away unless he's moving. The whole damned man. 'Cause they've never looked at a man standing still at 500m.

Good topic. Good responses. Got me all 'fired up'.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Very few will believe this story, But on my first Elk hunt, 1979 ,there was a guy who came to camp, with a brand new rifle, in the box, and the brand new scope, in the box. He completely expected 'Somebody" to mount it for him. An unfired , un scoped rife, with the hunt starting in the morning. Some guys should just play golf, and leave rifles alone.

That is unfortunate. I am guessing that he just did not know any better.

 

[Dean2]

Very few will believe this story, But on my first Elk hunt, 1979 ,there was a guy who came to camp, with a brand new rifle, in the box, and the brand new scope, in the box. He completely expected 'Somebody" to mount it for him. An unfired , un scoped rife, with the hunt starting in the morning. Some guys should just play golf, and leave rifles alone.

So I have to ask. At lunch time, did you help him mount the scope, take it to the range almost every hunt camp has, and help him get it sighted in and teach him how to get it to group? Or did you just laugh at him and leave it to "Somebody" else to help the guy.

 

[C-130 Dude]

First off - I believe every hunter should learn to be the best hunter they can be. That includes shooting well, but also care and handling of the meat, being courteous and professional around other hunters etc. There is a ton to learn, and few folks have the luxury of good mentors to teach it to them anymore. It isn't like it was when most of us were kids. We learned from our Dads, Uncles Grandfathers and friends. Most new hunters don't have that and few experienced hunters are willing to take new hunters along unless they are related or very close friends.

Youtube and forums are what replaces mentors. I am happy to answer questions for new hunters, I also take out quite a few, and rather than make fun of folks, I try to help guys I find struggling at the range because you can teach a lot in a short time. Just showing someone how to bore sight by pulling their bolt, speeds up the learning curve greatly. Teaching them how to breath and squeeze also doesn't take much work. Some on here, may want to give that some thought.

There is no substitute for butt in the seat training. Online and yt make people "think" they understand. Adults learn best by hands on experience. No question about it. I've been pushing mentoring for years. But I'm sad to say there's not more folks willing to do it.

 

[comfisherman]

It's a tough call on that, while the idea of a hunting ethics course akin to hunters saftey sounds good on paper. Ethics as well as saftey are hard to regulate and easily manipulated by institutional capture. Still difficult to legislate morality.


My preferred method is what we're hashing out in this very thread, namely peer to peer accountability.

 

[Dirtrax]

I recently joined a private range that has steel out to a mile. There are so many shooting positions and targets at varying ranges it's a blast. Anyway I show up one morning and it's early so I'm by myself at the covered section checking dope on a new load at the bench. Some folks had trickled in and while I'm waiting for my barrel to cool I watch the guy a couple benches down shoot. One shot and stare at his phone, repeat, repeat, repeat…
He never hit anything so I walk up to him and ask if he would like me to spot for him. "God yes!" he says so I tell him to shoot when ready. It's a miss so I recommend he adjust his scope "X" amount and try again. I bark out "IMPACT" and he turns and looks at me pretty satisfied. After a brief conversation I find out he had been guessing the distance at "about 200 yards". Well the closest target is 440 yards in that array and when I tell him that he's flabbergasted. Of course the yardage wasn't enough at that distance because of a 12 mph wind consistently coming in at half value. Just one hit with no fine tuning his dope he up and picks his stuff up, say's thanks and leaves. I'm betting he now thinks he has a 400 yd elk rifle. Too bad as I would have sat with him for the day getting him dialed. Guess he new all he needed to know.

 

[YZ-80]

Now that the cheerleading expo is mercifully over, I will chime in. I think there are "posers" in every hobby. Motorcycling, shooting, golf, figure skating, etc. The greater their means, the more they often stand out. A lot of times this happens in mid-life, when folks have realized their peak earning potential. Take the 55 year old guy who goes out and buys an Electraglide and has never been on a bike before. Scary.

I spend a lot of time with my rifles. I've been a hand loader since 2008 and have incrementally increased my skill set over the years. I've found that I can wring at least another MOA (over factory fodder) out of any rifle I own, mass produced or semi-custom. I know my limits and while I've rung steel at 1000, I have no business hunting at those distances. About 1/2 that is my limit. The other thing is that I'm spoiled. Bipods, sand bags and shooting rails are my best friends….and I use them as often as I can, with the exception of 60-70 yard shots in my back woods or when it's just not practical to do so.

Every once in a while, I post a basic 8" NRA small bore target at 100 yards next to the grid target I use to shoot groups and test my "O"off the bench. I'll bang out a .25 MOA 5 Shot group with my Cooper Custom Classic, then I force myself to repeat the process standing free-hand. Very humbling and You don't want to see the results. I'm a shooter. Not a "rifleman" and I know it. The good news is, I know my equipment, I know the essential tools I need to take "longer" shots and I exploit them to my full advantage. At the end of the day, it's fun and that's what makes it worth doing. It will remain fun as long as I remember what Harry Callahan said in Magnum Force: "A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[adk hunter]

Two things-

My nephew is a natural born killer and very lucky seeing game. He just finished his first guided hunt in Newfoundland. He missed a large moose at 300 yards and we have been banging my plate here at 300 like it was 100 yards. He got EXCITED "like a 14 year old kid" were his words. He learned the hard way dam things can't see and he had minutes to build a rest not seconds.

He redeemed himself wacking a running bull at 100 yards the guide was sure he missed. High lung took awhile to realized it was dead. On top of that, distances related in meters and yards just dawned on him while visiting with Uncle Joe

Totally agree with the exponential difficulty increasing with small changes in range and we haven't had a whisper about wind!!

The best thing shooting at steel at various ranges is the humble pie I eat with the wind calls without a sighter.

 

[Beefbonger]

Bone to pick and advice. Over the past ten years, we have seen a massive growth in out of the box 1000 yard capable rifles. Set up amazingly, built incredibly well and topped with amazing glass. Even engineered ammo. Then add ranging binos and ballistics calculators and you have a pretty amazing set up. True

If you buy one of these, awesome. SHOOT IT before you show up in camp. SO many times, I have been in camp trueing my D.O.P.E. and had some person show up with a rifle they have never shot and expecting to shoot their animal. They sit down, start shooting and wonder why they arent hitting the 500 yard target I set up.

Its because no one who cannot shoot 500 should try to shoot 500. Further more, shooting 600 is not a little harder than 500, its way harder. Just like shooting 1000 is not 2x as hard as shooting 500. NO its 10x harder. Especially in the field!! Especially with untested rifle, ammo, and hunter.

I have seen a few animals wounded and die terrible, long and painful deaths. Seen a few even not be recovered at were shot very badly. Please, show up ready to be an ethical hunter rather than showing up with bravado and ego. There is a reason military shooters have DOPE, so they hit the target correctly the first time! Then, true their dope...its takes time but the animal deserves it.

For a moment I thought your post was going to be about nice long-distance setups that tend to never shoot over a few hundred and I would be guilty as charged.
I'm of a handful of the kids who bought big 30s in the late 90s when ammo was still affordable and in stock.
Stubborn and/or Devoted I stuck with the big 30 through tough time$ and as such feel like I have a Ferrari that I use to pull stumps.
I agree with you.
Confidence in my opinion is key. Worst shooting I've ever done at the range or early in the hunting season was something NEW.
New barrel to add 2"
New bullet and thus a new load to work up.
New scope.
I guess in my few humble years on this mudball I've learned that... "All good tings come to dose who shoot straight." - Alphonse Soady.

 

[Ronald W Schaefer]

I bought my first rifle ever-- a 300 Weatherby Mk V Mag made in West Germany in 1973 SN#21111. I was 17 and I bought it for $250.00 from a Dr. who took it Elk hunting in Colorado with his friends who invited him. He wasn't really a hunter, had never hunted before and hadn't shot the rifle--but decided to accompany his friends...gun shop had thankfully set him up correctly through his secretary who handled the deal.
Good news: He's sitting in a tree in a timber where Elk had been crossing for a few days. He shoots his first critter ever and bags a nice bull.
Bad news: the rifle knocks him out of the tree and breaks his collar bone. He is grateful for the success but decides hunting is not for him. Back home he comes into the gym where I was a personal trainer (still had abs then) and sees me drooling over a Weatherby catalog, shopping for a rifle for a senior graduation hunt planned in Alaska with a friend whose family owned property there. After some discussion and learning I had just started saving and only $300.00 saved up--he offers me the rifle for $250.00. Being before Venmo, iPhone and all that other stuff I got permission to leave from work to go to the bank to withdraw said $250.00 which I then tendered for a very beautiful, like new, hardly used rifle. It still sits in my gun safe today and looks new off the shelf--took it to Africa with me a few years ago. Sooo...that was a good story (for me) about a guy who showed up to camp not quite ready--it worked out nicely for me!