"Beyond Belief" scope setup question???

[ss7mm]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

lovedasnow:

I'm currently using a Palm Zire 21 and it does everything I need it to do. You might look at different models if you want a backlit screen, games or other functions, but if you just want a Palm for shooting then don't waste a lot of money on something you won't ever use. Then, if you ever lose or destroy it, you're not out much money and you just replace it.

You could spend close to a thousand bucks on a Pocket PC or Palm, but why not just buy what you need and spend the money you saved on shooting supplies.

Perry's Exbal is great and I highly recommend it. I run it on my home computer and my Palm for the field.

One other thing I would recommend is a Kestrel 3500 weather meter, or something similar. This will give you all the weather data you will need. I use my GPS for the necessary data to calibrate the Kestrel and then all the data I need is available to be put into the Palm. Then it's just range, input data, dial necessary elevation, make any necessary wind corrections, set up for the shot, and drop that big buck or bull in his tracks.

Good luck with your long range shooting.

 

[sierra22]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

I seem to repeat myself, but here goes:

To make BDC work in ANY conditions, simply make a ballistic correction card. Example:

At x distance, deviation 20 hPa airpressure is 1 click.
At x distance, deviation 5C ammo/airtemp is 2 click.

It involves a bit of measuring equipment and work setting it up, but once you're done the BDC will work under any correction. Everything is on one card, works like a manual palm.
This is actually what I find most interesting about LR shooting - changes in POI due changes in atmosphere.

I only shoot one rifle and one load LR. It has been shot through the year with pious notes of results/atmosphere taken. The result is I have a pretty fair idea what happens, but it was a load of work and I pray that I'll never run out of my primer/powder combo.

The most important data is the increase/decrease in velocity due change in primer/powder combustion, this the computer cannot help me with.

There are more than one way to Rome.

 

[jmden]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

Did anyone mention target knobs set up to work off of MOA? Did I just miss that? Use your ballistics program for the conditions you're in and click away. A good ballistics program (backed up by real world shooting data) is what gives this approach it's flexibility.

I'm currently using the Stoney Point knobs with good results. On my Leupold, four 1/4 min. clicks puts you to the '1' mark on the turret and so on for 15 MOA or sixty 1/4 min. clicks per revolution.

This won't get you much past (if any) 1000 yards, unless you click well beyond one revolution (I'm shooting 180AB at 3300fps).

Either keep a handheld with you or print out two or three cheat sheets (laminated) for the conditions you are likely to be in for your hunt.

Have fun,

jmden

 

[Buffalobob]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

I tried to convert my cheat sheets to a picture so I could post what one looks like but I couldn't get it to be legible.

As you know the forum software destroys a formatted documment. Maybe somebody a little more talented than me can post a range card. Mine has range, drops in inches, MOA, clicks, setting(the number on the dial) Wind deflection, Angle drops up to 45 degrees.

Elevation doesn't change much here.

 

[Guest]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

jmden

This is exactly what I was referring to in another posting I made! I use a Leupold 4.5x14x50MM with target knobs and also install a set of Baer 20MOA bases which works real well as the bases put me very close to the bottom of the turrent adjustments leaving plenty of movement for elevation adjustments! With a 300 Win Mag and using the top of the post within the multi-plex crosshair system....this lets me go to 1500 yds. pretty easily for banging steel plates! Without the Baer mounts this would not be possible I don't think; not with efficiency as when one starts moving to the "outer limits" of reticule movement...precise movement can become "squirrelly"! What I've also done to check precision of movement toward the upper end movement is I put up a steel rule, put the rifle in a fixture and I check to see just how many clicks of movement it is from one number to the next! I have 5 of these scopes on various rifles and they all track exceedingly well....for me!!

HOLD HARD & STAY CENTER!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ricka0]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

BeyondBelief And for good reason /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Explains it all.
Also talked about at PLRH.com

 

[ricka0]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> I seem to repeat myself, but here goes:
To make BDC work in ANY conditions, simply make a ballistic correction card. Example:
At x distance, deviation 20 hPa airpressure is 1 click.
At x distance, deviation 5C ammo/airtemp is 2 click.: </font>

Great info!.

Dick - I usually agree with your posts and the Kestrel 3500 is the way to go - but you only really need pressure and temp (and wind) (+GPS) to get started - and you can do that a lot cheaper than the Kestrel. I just don't want to give new guys equipment shock.
Beyond Belief

 

[ss7mm]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

big_b0re:

If you notice, I said: "Kestrel 3500 weather meter, or something similar". I should have elaborated on this issue because you're right, you don't have to have all of the features of the 3500. I didn't intend to give somebody the wrong impression or information. There are many units out there that will give you the needed info for less than half of the Kestrel 3500.

I look at this the same way some people look at the "Chrony/Oehler" issue. I spend a ton of money to get the best guns I can, and don't want to cut corners. I consider the Kestrels to be top of the line so that's what I went with. You are absolutely correct in that you don't have to have the humidity or some of the other features.

I'm very particular when it comes to variables in my shooting world. If there is something that I consider to be a variable and isn't fixed and non-changing, and there's any way humanly possible that I can control that variable, then I want the ability to do so.

It's the lack of control of all variables that can get you into trouble. If your breathing isn't the same each shot, if you don't have the same position and pressure of your cheekweld every shot, if you don't set up behind the gun at the same angle each shot, if you don't use the same position and pressure for your trigger hand each shot, if you don't control the trigger the same each shot, if you don't pull the gun into your shoulder the same each shot, and on, and on, and on. It can be a never ending list, but it's the finer points that make it really interesting.

To each his own, but this is the reason I don't use cheat sheets for most of my shooting. I want to be mentally assured that I am taking advantage of all available info and data to make my shot. I do carry a very limited and small data sheet at all times in case something should happen with my electronics that will allow me to make most any shot, but if possible, I always use all available data for every occurrence where I dial my scope.

Most of it's actually a mental game that realistically takes place without me even knowing it because it's become an unconscious thing. Some things I make a point of controlling each shot and some things come automatically. If the shot isn't good and something goes wrong, then I go through my extensive list until I can eliminate all that happened right and try to isolate what I did wrong. When I believe I have it figured out, I will then do the shot all over again, concentrating on what I isolated as the problem with the previous shot.

Got a five shot group at 500 yards that's really nice and tight except for one shot that's out. Guess why that one shot was out? The gun didn't just decide to put one out to mess with you. You allowed something to be different. Almost all of the time that something was under your control. It might have been something as small as allowing your chest to touch the bench for that shot when you didn't for the others in the group. Your heart can and does move your body around more than some people realize.

<font color="red"> Sounds kind of anal, but if you allow the variables to be different each shot, each shot will be different. </font> This applies from the reloading stages through shot follow through. When that happens you might as well stick to 100 yard shots.

 

[CPorter]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

Big bore,

that assumes what, 1/4moa clicks? Scopes come in different values although 1/4moa is probably most common. Also the values tend to change a bit out towards the end of travel and if you are needing that must adjustment the difference at the other end can be very significant..

 

[sierra22]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

To clarify my post about 20 hPa/5C/ 1 click, just in case.

20 hpa/1 click and 5C/2click is not a calculation. It is a fictive result of an imagined calculation.

Start with a standard atmosphere ballistic table. Isolate one and one variable and print. Make a note of the deviations from standard. When complete you have a card that you read first the standard comeup, then read off actual pressure/temp and subtract/add the deviations.

Resulting comeup will be the same as if you put the variables in a computer and have it do the calculations for you.

But this system isn't really a "BDC", it's more a distance indexed target turret with all the clicks intact.

 

[lovdasnow]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

once again, thanks for the great info. I love coming home from work and checking this forum...as far as the kestrel 3500, I'll check it out. I am the same way as far as buying gear goes. Buy the best first, then you don't have to buy twice.....
so thanks guys, this has been very helpful!! jon

 

[ricka0]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

Dick,
I agree you have the optimal approach. My main comment was get new guys shooting without giving them sticker shock. You've done a good job of explaining why it's not a simple "beyond briefs" turn and burn of BDC.

 

[Guest]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

Gentlemen: Not to insult anyone…. But, if you are interested in long range shooting and you would like to get past the guessing games, past the hypothetical thinking, beyond the BS; then come and take my class and get the facts.

If you have a Pro grade firearm, (in a high power caliber) with Pro grade glass, I can teach you in two days, how to shoot accurately at long ranges; and it is much easier than you think.

BDC's work accurately in one environmental condition only. Once the Barometric Pressure changes and the temperature changes, your dope changes. So if you have spent two days zeroing in fifty yard increments from 100 to 1000 yards and your weather system changes, your previously acquired dope is near worthless.

What do you know about Magnus Affect? What do you know about Shadow Effect? What do you know about wind? What do you know about barrels, stocks and scopes? And what do you know about Exbal or Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Targeting Software?

If you want to shoot accurately at long range, you HAVE TO FIRST HAVE a rifle that will shoot 1/4" groups or less at 100 yards.

One last question. To set up the scenario, I once called wind at a match in which the shooter's target was at 500 yards. It was five inches in diameter and the caliber was 22-250. Bullet weight was I think 47 grains. There were two planes of wind; wind #1 was at five o'clock (at the muzzle), and wind #2 at 400 yards, was full value, and right to left at 7mph. When the bullet hit the second wind, what do you think it did?

 

[goodgrouper]

Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

W,

I agree with your post on the importance of knowing all the different exterior ballistic phenomenon and how critical they become the farther out we shoot. However, just so the beginners here don't get measurement shock, I would have to comment on this quote:
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to shoot accurately at long range, you HAVE TO FIRST HAVE a rifle that will shoot 1/4" groups or less at 100 yards.


[/ QUOTE ]


While this is definetly a great scenario, one should not throw his gun away because it doesn't shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards. Often times (especially with vld style bullets) it takes a few football fields for the bullets to settle down a bit. I have one rifle that will not shoot under 3/4" at 100 yards, yet I have dispatched many a vermin out to 1400 yards with this rifle. It will often print 8" groups or better at 1k.


One excellent way for beginners to learn these exterior ballistic principles (besides visiting LRH and taking your class) is to pick up a copy of Robert A. Rinkers book titled, "Understanding firearm ballistics". It is jammed full of great info from basic rules of physics to advanced methods of shot placement and everything inbetween.
It sells for about $25 and is advertised in numerous shooting magazines.
FWIW. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif