Best reloader for Precision long range?

[Trickymissfit]

DO NOT BUY A KIT!!!!!!! I say again do not buy a kit!!! 3/4 of the kit will be replaced in 18 months, so why spend good money twice.

I will of course recommend the Forster Co-Ax, as it has a leg up on all the others. I would also recommend using either a custom set of Whidden dies, or the Forster die set.
You'll also want one of Larry Willis' dies to finish the case resizing process (Inovative Tech). The two best seaters out there are the Forster and the Whidden. Only thing better is an arbor press with inline dies.

No matter what you have to have a way to measure powder. I use electronic scales in a two and sometimes three unit set up. Have not used a beam scale in at least 15 years, but that's a person's own preference. Some guys like the RCBS charge master (or whatever they call the thing). I have a Pact that just stays in the box as I don't bother with it. Yet it's very accurate. I use two different powder measurers, and both are accurate. One is a Lyman #55 with the Sinclair bottle adapter and baffles and several drop tubes. The other is a Harrell, and face it there's none better. Yet with these measures one will drop the charge about a grain short and trickle the remainder due the powder grains being of a very coarse nature (300 mag). Yet throwing fine grain powders, these two are +/- one tenth grain gadgets. Plus the Harrell Culver is not something to start out with, but once you learn it will ruin you!

I still like the K&M priming tools better than the rest. Have used the Sinclair, and it's really good, but didn't work well with my beat up hands. I must have six or eight priming tools, and those two are the only ones I'd consider if buying another! And while on the subject of primers, you may want a primer pocket reaming tool. I use the K&M, but honestly wish it was about .0005" tighter. (just me). It works well with an electric screw driver, and my old hands like that.

You'll want a good case trimmer, and I like the Wilson. Cuts very square with the case centerline. I've used two or three others, but this one is the last one I'll ever own. Sinclair sells a version with a lot of add on's that really make it nice. Mine has most all these items, but I added mine before Fred ever did his (been a long time). Recommended.

I check my case run out with a NECO gauge 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time I use a home built fixture that I feel is even more accurate. I'm big on the garbage in/garbage out thought process. Buy a good quality digital caliper in the 4" or 6" range. I own about six or eight, but use a Starette most of the time. For an analog caliper I like the Mitutoyo better than the others. I use a 4" one that I bought in 1970, and has never wore out a battery! You will sooner or later want a 1" micrometer. Buy a good one! (stay away from the Chinese junk). I'll tell you about dial indicators sometime, but keep in mind most are not so hot.

I could make you a list that would drive you nuts, but I won't! Everybody will tell you to buy this and that. I will not go that far, but will tell you what worked for me and some other well placed folks. I've owned three presses, plus one arbor press. Gave one away (an RCBS that I rebuilt into a very nice press). I now have a Co-Ax and a small RCBS. The RCBS is there for some odd jobs that I find unhandy on the Co-Ax. Yet 97% here will never see these issues. Power wise the Co-Ax is by far the strongest out there. You'll never know the advantage with something like .223, but really smacks you in the face with very long straight walled cases. What I recommend is to try several brands with something like generic once fired 30-06. Find one that you like and go with it.

Lastly, have a good Christmas over there. I did two in the combat zone, and don't think we're not thinking of you!
gary

 

[Vamike9]

Is reloading 69-77gr 223 ammo a wise choice? Or is it better to reload bigger calibers like 308 and such? I can buy Black Hills remanufactured match 223 ammunition for around .68 cents a round. Since I am very new to reloading, will that save me much if I reload instead? I guess what I'm asking is how do you maximize the savings with reloading 223 match ammo? Everyones advice has been very helpful to me.

 

[RustyRick]

I don't recommend "KITS" as you usually wind up with stuff you will never use and miss items you need.

For instance - powder measures are NOT very accurate for course powders. In fact they are terrible with powders like 4831 to H1000.

Tricklers - ya you need to trickle powder. But a shallow cup, a small measuring spoon, and a pinch between your finger and thumb trickle just fine. Used that for decades. Now I graduated to the RCBS electronic. Just money.

 

[KYpatriot]

Get a Forester Co-Ax press if you can afford it. The next choice would be one of the Redding single stage presses. Get a good beam balance such as the RCBS 5-0-5. It will give fewer problems.

This exactly.coax is awesome, especially if you load for multiple cartridges. Makes great ammo.

I use an electronic powder thrower to get within a couple tenths, then pull the pan, dump it into the beam scale pan, and trickle up to charge. Just a little faster than the beam by itself, which I did for years.

Vld chamfer tool for case mouths.

I use firster benchrest die sets, with the micrometer seater which i cant imagine going back to a non micrometer seater again. You want that if you care about consistent seating depth...and you do.

 

[CA30-06]

Just my 2 cents from another rookie who has asked for advice from the salty dogs on this site, I started loading with a rcbs single I got from my dad when he passed. It is at least 40 years old and I have managed to match federal match for my 308 5r with no problems. Best advice I got from asking those who know is take your time, buy the best components you can afford, DO NOT just dump powder in brass shove in a pill and shoot, follow a good manuel and take your time. Ask those that have done it. All the advice in this thread is good. Don't think that the first group of stuff you buy is your last. Believe me, it's not. Above all, enjoy it! After all, it's not supposed to be work......right?

 

[Bart B]

I use firster . . . micrometer seater which i cant imagine going back to a non micrometer seater again. You want that if you care about consistent seating depth...and you do.

I get virtually zero spread in seating depth with both die types across different makes' that's very consistent to me.

All seater dies set to push bullets into sized cases do so with very consistent case head to the reference diameter on the bullet's ogive where the seater plug's contacted it. All you need to do is use a caliper and bushing to measure the distance from case head to where that bushing touches the bullet's ogive. The bushing's inside diameter has to be the same as the seater plug diameter at bullet contact point.

The advantage seaters with micrometer type depth adjustments have is it's easier to make a .002" change. Standard seaters typically have 1/4" 28 tpi stems that adjust .036" per turn. Twist it 1/18th of a turn (20 degrees) and that'll change its position .002". Micrometer ones have .001" increments marked on a thimble much larger in diameter than the standard seater stems at 1/4".

With all rimless bottleneck cases properly resized then loaded with bullets so seated to even a zero spread, they'll typically still have a few to several thousandths inch spread in how far they have to move out of the case neck before they touch the rifling.

Why is that possible?

And the rifling at its origin erodes away .001" for every 10 to 40 or so rounds of its life; to some, that makes a difference as bullet jump increases at that rate.

 

[257ackleyhunter]

i have been reloading for 21 years and up until recently its always been on a herters single ram press. Its a very heavy press and feels good in the hand when working up a load. Now I have a Redding T7 turret press its still single ram but you can move the head without having to unscrew and rescrew in a die when you change over from sizing to bullet seating. I also use Redding dies as well. i have used the rock chucker a little and found that even though its a good press it doesnt give the same tactile feedback that the herters or the redding reloader does. everything else i have though is RCBS. since i spent years with a balance beam scale, a mechanical powder measure and a powder trickler i decided to get the best electronic powder measure and scale combo rcbs has. it makes life so much easier now i dont have to spend an hour getting everything just right i just have to turn it on zero anc cal the scale and im ready to load new or old loads. i hope you can take away from everyones advice and make yourself a nice little setup. HAPPY RELOADING!!

 

[RustyRick]

I've been hand loading for hunting purpose since high school. (I'm 68 so do the math)

My dad gave me one awesome piece of advice when I started what has proved to be foundational.

I was trying to justify buying a reloading set up in grade 10. I did all the cost evaluations. (not even calculators in those days. Slide ruler - most of you wont know what that was)

So while waiting for supper and dad in his Lazy-boy chair as dad read his news paper. I sat beside him trying to get his attention at the 50% reduction in cost of shooting. 4831 was $20 for a 20lb. keg.

Dad not putting his paper down said "you won't save any money - you'll shoot twice as much.

I still haven't forgiven him

 

[Bart B]

Regarding charge weight uniformity.......

Benchrest records through 300 yards are set with thrown powder charges with a 2/10ths grain spread.

Sierra Bullets throws powder from measures directly into cases to test their bullets for accuracy; best match grade ones shoot 1/4th MOA at 200 yards; same as bench rest aggregate records.

Federal Gold Medal Match ammo with 3/10ths grain spread in charge weight has tested 2/3rds MOA at 600 yards.

Handloaded .308 Win. match ammo with 3/10ths grain spread thrown charges in new cases has tested under 1/2 MOA at 600 yards and 4/5ths MOA at 1000.

I therefore conclude that exact charge weights of powder not on the list of the ten things needed for best accuracy.

 

[rcoody]

I've been hand loading for hunting purpose since high school. (I'm 68 so do the math)

My dad gave me one awesome piece of advice when I started what has proved to be foundational.

I was trying to justify buying a reloading set up in grade 10. I did all the cost evaluations. (not even calculators in those days. Slide ruler - most of you wont know what that was)

So while waiting for supper and dad in his Lazy-boy chair as dad read his news paper. I sat beside him trying to get his attention at the 50% reduction in cost of shooting. 4831 was $20 for a 20lb. keg.

Dad not putting his paper down said "you won't save any money - you'll shoot twice as much.

I still haven't forgiven him

absolutely!!

I will tell anyone getting into reloading

if you are doing it to save money don't

If you enjoy the challenge of producing the best ammunition for your rifle and you are detail oriented and like figuring things out it will be a great hobby. In the end an expensive one but very fulfilling.

 

[65WSM]

The real answer for long range shooting is to use Wilson Dies with an Arbor press for accurate loads with fired cases.

Chamber type seating dies will outdo the run of the mill RCBS, Redding or Lyman die sets. Most die sets on the shelf do not have seating stems set up for long range bullets. You will need to buy after market stems for seating VLD bullets regardless of dies. Every Forster seating die is a "chamber type". Many Lee dies and the micrometer Redding dies are but you will need a gunsmiths help to keep from seating with the bullets tip with sharp pointed bullets. Again the Wilson dies are the most accurate alternative for seating.

For sizing fired brass, Wilson dies size half of the neck, leaving the base of the neck at chamber diameter to center the bullet in the chamber. Some Forster dies are set up to size this way. I have two sets of Forster "Bump
Bushing Dies" and I like them.

 

[65WSM]

The best alignment press for long range shooting with threaded seating dies is the Bonanza from Forster. I saw the Army sniper reloading room at Fort Lewis and it had Bonanza presses all around.

The RCBS rock chucker press was designed by a guy that wanted to size his .22/250 and .219 Donaldson Wasp cases for rock chuck hunting. It is a short press. It is difficult to size large magnum cases. I struggled seating Berger 130 VLD bullets in 6.5 - 06 cases last night in the Rock Chucker. The Redding Ultra press or Lyman Orange crusher are better suited than the Bonanza or Rock Chucker for Ultra Mag cartridges although I have done it with both presses.

For case forming for wildcat cartridges I would choose a Redding Ultramag press. I recently had some 6.5-284 cases sized with it (barrel change mandated the full length sizing) that resisted the less leveraged RCBS Rock Chucker.

Photo shows a sharp pointed Berger VLD in both an issue and special VLD seating stem for a chamber type die.

 

[Trickymissfit]

The real answer for long range shooting is to use Wilson Dies with an Arbor press for accurate loads with fired cases.

Chamber type seating dies will outdo the run of the mill RCBS, Redding or Lyman die sets. Most die sets on the shelf do not have seating stems set up for long range bullets. You will need to buy after market stems for seating VLD bullets regardless of dies. Every Forster seating die is a "chamber type". Many Lee dies and the micrometer Redding dies are but you will need a gunsmiths help to keep from seating with the bullets tip with sharp pointed bullets. Again the Wilson dies are the most accurate alternative for seating.

For sizing fired brass, Wilson dies size half of the neck, leaving the base of the neck at chamber diameter to center the bullet in the chamber. Some Forster dies are set up to size this way. I have two sets of Forster "Bump
Bushing Dies" and I like them.

never used a Forster bushing die, and to be exact the only bushing dies I own are Wilson and two Redding sets that fail to impress me. Now I use all my threaded dies in my 1978 Bananza Co-Ax press (yes it's that old!). I check my sized cases 95% of the time with a Neco gauge with an Interrapid .0005" indicator. The difference between the Forster and the Wilson is three to five tenths TIR runout. I have a .0001" Interrapid, and will occasionally use it, but it's extremely touchy to work with. Yet I've gone so far as to use a .000050" Federal just to cross check me references. I'm not that good at reloading, so I only check my setups with it. I load some tight neck chambers, and of course shave the necks on the cases. That's where the Wilson steps out ahead of the pack. With standard neck diameters the difference is closer to three tenths run out.
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

The best alignment press for long range shooting with threaded seating dies is the Bonanza from Forster. I saw the Army sniper reloading room at Fort Lewis and it had Bonanza presses all around.

The RCBS rock chucker press was designed by a guy that wanted to size his .22/250 and .219 Donaldson Wasp cases for rock chuck hunting. It is a short press. It is difficult to size large magnum cases. I struggled seating Berger 130 VLD bullets in 6.5 - 06 cases last night in the Rock Chucker. The Redding Ultra press or Lyman Orange crusher are better suited than the Bonanza or Rock Chucker for Ultra Mag cartridges although I have done it with both presses.

For case forming for wildcat cartridges I would choose a Redding Ultramag press. I recently had some 6.5-284 cases sized with it (barrel change mandated the full length sizing) that resisted the less leveraged RCBS Rock Chucker.

Photo shows a sharp pointed Berger VLD in both an issue and special VLD seating stem for a chamber type die.

many years back, I worked with a guy that was part of an Army Reserve shooting team. They shot N.M. M14 rifles with peep sights at 1000 yards. For the longest times I thought they were shooting at 500 yards or less. One day Ralph comes in with a half dozen great big targets that had eight inch groups on them. I said to myself that he ought to be doing better than that at 500 yards! Then he tells me they are 1000 yard targets with Lake City match ammo! He asked me about reloading 7.62x51 ammo, and I told we could do that. He comes over to the house and sees my Co-Ax and asked what that contraption was? The rules they shot with stipulated the bullet and case, so we pulled about a hundred bullets and save the powder. I had him pick up a hundred or so cases at the range the next time they shot. He brings the cases over with three of his shooting buddies. I ran them thru a generic Forster .308 die that I borrowed from a buddy of mine. Seated Federal primers, and nothing else. We reloaded the cases with the saved powder and maybe got fifty rounds that had about .0017" of run out. He comes in the following Monday with another four or five targets that had six inch groups. Tuesday morning I hear a knock on the door, and now we have a half dozen guys from his group. They are buying reloading equipment and want to know what I was using. I sent them up to see Fred Sinclair, and they came home with some really nice stuff and three new Forster presses with .308 N.M. dies. ( nice to have a lot of money to spend!!!!) Now I teach them what little I knew at the time, and they are about to drive Fred nuts with phone calls. Two or three months later Ralph comes into work and tells me his team has won the U.S. Army Reserve nation shooting championship, and will now start competing against Army and Marine units. Ralph was dead a year later. Cancer got him.
gary