Berger VS Hornaday

Jeff Haugland said:
Upon thd purchase {December}of a New Seekins Havic Element 300 wm topped with a new VX6HD 4x24x52 Leupold im not happy with any of my hand loads. 3 different powders h1000 h4350 h4831sc 2 different bergers190 & 155 gr. With an extremely long throat on the seekins the bergers didnt want any jump. I ordered a box of hornady 178 gr eldx. I even ordered a box of old school flat base 180 grain Hornadays to have if i cant build a grouping with Boattails plus a factory box of Hornadys 178 gr eldx just to try to find the guanteeed factory MOA group of the rifle. My question is are the hornadys as sensitive to jump? I'm looking for a starting point. I've yet to shoot a inch group from factory coal to lands> 3.570. I also used a second set of RCBS Dies for a change up to no avail. It was shot by a 2nd party, along with all contacts rechecked properly torqued in inch pounds.In cleaning the gun it appears to have been lapped at the factory, there is some fouling with hardly any copper residue. Yes it was sold as brand new from Euro Optics. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Jeff ~
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It seems odd to have a have chamber that is not SAAMI. I would either cast the chamber and ensure spec or get a proper OAL length to ensure spec. If out of spec the rifle goes to seekins. If in spec, something else seems off.

Just curious...... 155 and 190 are kind of odd sizes for a 300. Seems like most people prefer a 200 class bullet in a magnum. Is there a particular reason for the lighter bullets? As far as hornady x's, I found they are just fine with jump but most prefere 20-30k. Berger, I am not a huge fan, but I had very good luck at 100k. I had 1 rifle that jumped 250k and it was good to go. Unless you are crushing powder I'd do a seating depth test to 250 if you can actually get that far.
 
I've got a Havak PH2 in 300 prc. It wouldn't shoot 225's at all, factory or handloads. It loves the Hornady 208 Eldm's; I shoot them in everything from a 300 blackout to 300wm. They usually like a .02 to a .04 jump. I'd suggest you try the 208's.
 
I have not seen anything on your twist rate, my sons WM has a 1 in8.5 and loves Hornady 215 ELDX hand loads, my 300 WSM has a 1 in 11 and won't shoot a good group beyond 200 yards with anything heavier that a 180s. it love 168 Berger clasics at .030 jump and 178 ELDXs at .010 of jump. they were my most accurate out to 528 yards,( thats our max range we have here) 3/4 MOA less then 1/2 MOA at 100yds
 
Jeff Haugland said:
Upon thd purchase {December}of a New Seekins Havic Element 300 wm topped with a new VX6HD 4x24x52 Leupold im not happy with any of my hand loads. 3 different powders h1000 h4350 h4831sc 2 different bergers190 & 155 gr. With an extremely long throat on the seekins the bergers didnt want any jump. I ordered a box of hornady 178 gr eldx. I even ordered a box of old school flat base 180 grain Hornadays to have if i cant build a grouping with Boattails plus a factory box of Hornadys 178 gr eldx just to try to find the guanteeed factory MOA group of the rifle. My question is are the hornadys as sensitive to jump? I'm looking for a starting point. I've yet to shoot a inch group from factory coal to lands> 3.570. I also used a second set of RCBS Dies for a change up to no avail. It was shot by a 2nd party, along with all contacts rechecked properly torqued in inch pounds.In cleaning the gun it appears to have been lapped at the factory, there is some fouling with hardly any copper residue. Yes it was sold as brand new from Euro Optics. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Jeff ~
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You are far more an expert and invested than me. So forgive me if this is stupid. But I recently chased a rifle trying everything anyone suggested regarding bullets, powders, and seating depth. Again forgive my ignorance but my history is only deer hunting mostly 200 yds and in. What I eventually discovered is that my rifle with a "good name" and sub-MOA guarantee had a LOT of slop around the recoil lug.

Is there anything in your rifle that might be loose or otherwise a problem? Just asking since the amount of components I wasted was a "significant emotional experience" for me- IOWs something I will remember for a long time and change my behavior to avoid.
 
sjt18 said:
You are far more an expert and invested than me. So forgive me if this is stupid. But I recently chased a rifle trying everything anyone suggested regarding bullets, powders, and seating depth. Again forgive my ignorance but my history is only deer hunting mostly 200 yds and in. What I eventually discovered is that my rifle with a "good name" and sub-MOA guarantee had a LOT of slop around the recoil lug.

Is there anything in your rifle that might be loose or otherwise a problem? Just asking since the amount of components I wasted was a "significant emotional experience" for me- IOWs something I will remember for a long time and change my behavior to avoid.
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This is an excellent example of what to avoid. You fell into a trap of assuming everything was ok with the rifle. Most of us have fallen into that trap at one time or another.

I'll repeat on of my favorite sayings. If a rifle, especially a "custom" one won't shoot factory ammo in pretty small groups right out of the box, look first and foremost at the rifle rather than wasting a LOT of time chasing a good load. You might have to try a few different factory ammo types but usually trying something loaded with the most popular bullet weight for that cartridge should do it.

Either take it to a really good gunsmith to evaluate or sell it to someone that doesn't care as much as you about accuracy or failing all that send it back but that is expensive and time consuming and you risk being told there's nothing wrong with it even if there is.

Sorry you went through that. I have experienced that type of problem in the past until I finally ran across a seriously good gunsmith that has found and fixed problems with rifles by just looking them over and running a few quick tests on them. There are so many things that have to be right with a rifle for it to be accurate.
 
@Jeff Haugland,

Looking at the Berger website, It's looking like you're using the VLD bullets.
My experience with them is that they like to be up close and personal to the lands.

I'd try something with a different ogive shape. Like the Classic Hunter or Juggernaut, if you want to stick with Berger.

Otherwise look at Sierra, or Nosler as both are very forgiving of jump.
 
LDHunter said:
This is an excellent example of what to avoid. You fell into a trap of assuming everything was ok with the rifle. Most of us have fallen into that trap at one time or another.

I'll repeat on of my favorite sayings. If a rifle, especially a "custom" one won't shoot factory ammo in pretty small groups right out of the box, look first and foremost at the rifle rather than wasting a LOT of time chasing a good load. You might have to try a few different factory ammo types but usually trying something loaded with the most popular bullet weight for that cartridge should do it.

Either take it to a really good gunsmith to evaluate or sell it to someone that doesn't care as much as you about accuracy or failing all that send it back but that is expensive and time consuming and you risk being told there's nothing wrong with it even if there is.

Sorry you went through that. I have experienced that type of problem in the past until I finally ran across a seriously good gunsmith that has found and fixed problems with rifles by just looking them over and running a few quick tests on them. There are so many things that have to be right with a rifle for it to be accurate.
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I really appreciate that. I shot some handloads the other day- first time the weather cooperated since I got my action bedded. (Working on the method I saw Satterlee himself explain in a video not long ago. Seating depth first.)

But your point about factory ammo rings a bell. I have some SST ammo that I might shoot just to see how close I am. Hopefully I still have some Norma left too. That worked best out of my gun originally.

Again, a novice's mistake for not knowing but that Norma would shoot 4 tight rounds out of five but always a flyer.
 
I think you definitely need to try a different proven scope. This could easily be the issue. And no amount of load work or different barrels would make any difference. Plus you rarely hear of this type of issues from seekins
 
I would think that Seekins test fired (for a group) before it left their shop. Contact them with the Ser #, and find out what load they shot and what the results were. If they keep the test target on file, maybe they could make a copy and email it to you. Try the load (ammo) they used and see if you can duplicate the group they shot when they tested it. If not, try another proven scope, then if you're not satisfied, start the return process back to Seekins.
 
Jeff Haugland said:
Upon thd purchase {December}of a New Seekins Havic Element 300 wm topped with a new VX6HD 4x24x52 Leupold im not happy with any of my hand loads. 3 different powders h1000 h4350 h4831sc 2 different bergers190 & 155 gr. With an extremely long throat on the seekins the bergers didnt want any jump. I ordered a box of hornady 178 gr eldx. I even ordered a box of old school flat base 180 grain Hornadays to have if i cant build a grouping with Boattails plus a factory box of Hornadys 178 gr eldx just to try to find the guanteeed factory MOA group of the rifle. My question is are the hornadys as sensitive to jump? I'm looking for a starting point. I've yet to shoot a inch group from factory coal to lands> 3.570. I also used a second set of RCBS Dies for a change up to no avail. It was shot by a 2nd party, along with all contacts rechecked properly torqued in inch pounds.In cleaning the gun it appears to have been lapped at the factory, there is some fouling with hardly any copper residue. Yes it was sold as brand new from Euro Optics. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Jeff ~
Click to expand...
My son is having GREAT Luck ( .314 to 1/2 MOA, 5 shot group's ) with 180 grain ELD-M's at .070 Off Jam using about, 70 +- grains of, StaBall HD Powder @ 2,985 FPS in his 7 PRC w/ a Proof Barrel.
Most of, the ELD-M's / ELD-X's that, we've tried,. Jump, very Well and "Shoot",. TIGHT group's !
I my experience, the easiest to "Tune" Berger bullets ARE,. the OTM Hybrid's and, the Classic and Elite,. Hunters.
H-VLD's "Can" Be, a REAL,. "Pain" to get to, shoot,.. well !
PS;,. I'd NOT Worry about,. the Seekin's Rifle ( More than Likely, it's the Bullet / load. )
And Buy yourself, a set of, Forster Dies to get Rid of, ANY bad, bullet,. "Run-Out" !
My Forster sizers, All produce from,. .000 to, .002 TIR, Max, Bullet, Run-Out.
Most of the Time, it's the Sizer that's causing, the Bad run-out, "issues"
 
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VinceMule said:
Jeff, educate yourself on the difference between a Secant and Tangent Ogive bullet designs. Long bullet jumps often prefer the less VLD design bullets...pick.
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I could use some help there. I am working with Norma Tipstrikes. I am not entirely sure whether they're secant or tangent. However they seem to LOVE a jump. Factory bullets are around 3.17 COAL in 270 win. In my gun for that bullet, that's about .170" off the lands.

Is there a simple way to determine if a bullet is secant or tangent? I know the difference between secant and tangent in mathematics. I have read some articles but still struggle telling the difference.

It was the most accurate tipped factory bullet out of my CVA Cascade when I was trying different factory loads. Much better than ELD-X.

Oddly or maybe not, non-tipped spire point bullets seemed to do the best.
 

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