Berger to introduce 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting Bullet

[NZ Longranger]

Go Berger go! I've got 8" twist barrels here all fitted up in our big 7mm's just waiting for them!!!
Greg

 

[JeffVN]

Eric

Thank you for the honest response to the timing question on the 7mm 195. I STRONGLY prefer the honest "we don't know exactly when" response, rather than a series of dates that come and go.

Jeffvn

 

[midnightmalloy]

Eric

Thank you for the honest response to the timing question on the 7mm 195. I STRONGLY prefer the honest "we don't know exactly when" response, rather than a series of dates that come and go.

Jeffvn

I appreciate the response also but I just cant understand why almost every manufacturer and the majority of smiths and parts manufactures in this business never deliver when they say they will. Although I love this sport and industry this is one of the worst industries I have seen for not coming through on completion dates. Im not trying to single any one producer out but its a very negative aspect of this industry.

 

[midnightmalloy]

Sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. I will echo Bob's comment that the 7mm is planned for June. The 270 cal ultra heavy bullet is planned for April. Please keep in mind that we are making something that is passed the extreme edge of what we have done before. This means that things may happen that we've not seen before that could delay these bullet.

Regarding twist rate it is important to keep in mind that the twist rate we recommend is based on the worst case scenario (sea level and cold). It is likely that a slightly slower twist rate will work at different air densities (higher elevation and warmer temperatures) but the specifics won't be known until it is tried. The good news is that if it won't work you will know within a few shots.

Another point that came up is whether this bullet will be available for target shooters. This bullet has been designed and will be made first for the hunters. There was a point when we weren't sure if the Hybrid design works as a hunting bullet. This is the primary reason we made the first Hybrid bullets for Target shooters only. Since we know the Hybrid design does work for hunting, we can go straight to making this ultra heavy 7mm into a hunting bullet.

One thing to consider is that these ultra heavy bullets may suffer the same issues as the Gen 1 338 cal bullet (which is being reintroduced as a Hunting bullet). Our first test will be on bullets with jackets made for hunting. If we run into problems, one of the things we can try is to make it with a thicker jacket which is used on our target bullets. This is entirely speculation at this point but the good news is that we know we can make a bullet that will withstand more abuse. The challenge is sorting out whether or not these things will be necessary.

Regards,
Eric

this is where I got the June date. The thing it that no word of the delay of the 270 bullet came till just this month which is 2 months after the projected release was supposed to happen. Not trying to upset anyone just stating a fact. It doesnt even sound like you guys have any of the stuff done for the 7mm bullet yet. Im just saying that lots of us traded in or sold our 9 twists at a loss so we can shoot this bullet and now its up in the air as to many aspects that should have been conveyed at the begining.

 

[Eaglet]

this is where I got the June date. The thing it that no word of the delay of the 270 bullet came till just this month which is 2 months after the projected release was supposed to happen. Not trying to upset anyone just stating a fact. It doesnt even sound like you guys have any of the stuff done for the 7mm bullet yet. Im just saying that lots of us traded in or sold our 9 twists at a loss so we can shoot this bullet and now its up in the air as to many aspects that should have been conveyed at the begining.

I, respectfully, don't believe you position is fair. We all know these things take time and obstacles that can't be predicted need to be overcome and as human beings we can only foresee as close as we can. We shouldn't jump the gun too quickly.

Many of us have seen it over and over with different bullet makers and them
obstacles never fail to get in the way and slow things down.

 

[midnightmalloy]

I, respectfully, don't believe you position is fair. We all know these things take time and obstacles that can't be predicted need to be overcome and as human beings we can only foresee as close as we can. We shouldn't jump the gun too quickly.

Many of us have seen it over and over with different bullet makers and them
obstacles never fail to get in the way and slow things down.

You are exactly right that all of us have seen this time and time again with bullet mfgs barrel makers, action makers .....this isnt "common place" in other industries. To be clear all most of us want is transparency. When someone who represents any company makes a promise or projection they need to be open about development. There are many tools such as microsoft project, binding contracts and supplier discounts for tardyness yet we all still pay FULL PRICE in this industry when a gunsmith, mfg or what not is late. There is no incentive to be on time when we still pay full price for services or products that are late. I really like berger and all the great products they produce yet this is a business and they get their paychecks by us buying there products. They introduce new products that the consumer wants they make more money. Literally this entire industry repeditively and with regularity doesnt produce on the timeline that the manufacturer provides. Like you say this is a regular occurance and happens all the time, this isnt acceptable if you ask me.

 

[Eric Stecker]

I respect the feedback regarding the frustration with delays and frankly agree completely that this is unacceptable. As the person responsible for this result at Berger I reflect on how this is allowed to happen.

The problem I have is that when I write down the things that pushed us past the due date and look at them again they appear like nothing more than a list of excuses. Unfortunately, for me, they are also reasons and they are real.

I can't speak for the whole of the industry but I will speak for Berger. We have two primary problems when it comes to announcing new products. The first is that in many cases, it is something we haven't done before so problems come up that are new and could not be accounted for in the timeline estimate.

The second primary problem with announcing new product is, frankly, I'm not good at accurately estimating how long these things will take. I simply don't put enough importance on getting it right so much of my estimate is "from the hip".

Obviously this is a problem that needs to be resolved. I can say with certainty that the first step will be that I will keep my mouth shut when we start developing something new. This is not because I don't want the feedback listed in this thread but rather because going from idea to shooting real bullets takes a lot of time. It's not fair to the shooter for me to get excited about something publicly. It gets shooters excited and then they wait...and wait...and wait.

I am in the middle of working the project so I have first hand knowledge of where we are and how we are doing. Shooters don't get any relief since they are forced to sit and wait. This is far more frustrating than my situaiton.

The next step I need to take in solving this issue is that when we know we are going to make something happen and we know when we need to get it done by a certain time, we must be sure that the path and details are resolved.

I'll sum up by saying, I hear you and I get it. We've worked to be better at reducing shooters frustrations by keeping the lid on these projects. I was too excited about this particular project to keep my mouth shut. I've also put too little effort into defining and ensuring the timeline. I apologize for these shortcoming and will do better in the future.

Regards,
Eric

 

[rscott5028]

Eric,

You don't need to apologize.

I'd rather know about the status of future development and projected timelines even if you have to caveat that these are forward looking views that may be met with unforseen delays.

Thanks for keeping us posted. And, thanks for holding up production until it meets the necessary standards for quality.

-- Richard

 

[sendero72]

Right on rscott5028!

No need for apololgies. Some people live in a perfect world and then there's the 99.9% of the rest us that live in real world. I wouldn't sell my truck today knowing that the new model want be on the market until three months from now!

 

[Eaglet]

I'll sum up by saying, I hear you and I get it. We've worked to be better at reducing shooters frustrations by keeping the lid on these projects. I was too excited about this particular project to keep my mouth shut. I've also put too little effort into defining and ensuring the timeline. I apologize for these shortcoming and will do better in the future.

Regards,
Eric

Exactly what I was afraid of.

Eric, as stated before you don't need to apologize, at least not to most of us, I
hope your apologies are sufficient to those few that may have been offended...

Some of us (if not most of us) want to be part of that excitement and we appreciate
you sharing it with us. We also understand of the possible complications. Besides,
you don't have a contract with us, you're just being one of us and sharing info. that's
highly appreciated. That includes the frustrations of the project, the pro and cons.

I'm not taking sides, just being me.

Thank you!

 

[Len Backus]

Ditto what rscott said.

 

[Apex Custom Rifles]

This is quite the interesting thread. I have not read it all, but pages here and there.

This is the first I have read of the new Bergers and I am excited. I just finished up my F-class Open rifle in a 280 Improved version and shot my first F-class match a couple weeks ago with the Berger 180's, which was the first time I shot the Bergers. They performed very well by the way. Glad I put a 8.5 twist on mine, I was expecting to shoot the heaviest bullets available though. When they arrive, I will for sure be trying them out to see what happens.

As for product deadlines... No worries... I would rather have a bullet in a month or two that does what it is suppose to, than have a bullet now that may fail and be a dissapointment.

Looking forward to these becoming available and keep us posted. The "slickest" bullet was not created in a day!

 

[royinidaho]

There must at least two, maybe three types of temperaments among shooters.

1. Those who want without any effort on their own. (Henny Penny's neighbors)
2. Those who are satisfied with what is available.
3. Those who find a need and do what it takes for fill the need.

Number 1 will never understand number 3.
Number 2 will never make a difference
Number 3 will always be on the bleeding edge. The bleeding edge is where things are tough, unexpected and unforgiving. It is also where things are happening. It should be understood that what is happening and the resulting end product has never before existed. Therein lies the magic.

There are several versions of the following quote, I've even modified a version for myself.

From Teddy Roosevelt's stash:

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

So, shut up and let the movers and shakers, move and shake.

 

[midnightmalloy]

Right on rscott5028!

No need for apololgies. Some people live in a perfect world and then there's the 99.9% of the rest us that live in real world. I wouldn't sell my truck today knowing that the new model want be on the market until three months from now!

how would you know this new truck will be on the market in three months? the manufacturer would tell you so! correct or not? If you waited to sell your current truck it would depreciate in value. that's simple business.

I do not live in any sort of perfect world, yet there are plenty of easily accessible products that can accurately assess time to market such as Microsoft Project. Project management is easily applicable to many of the gun industries problems yet the majority of these "business owners" have no clue how to utilize such tools so they do exactly as Eric has done and provided a "shoot from the hip" type of time frame.

I am in no way suggesting that companies not disclose future plans, what I am saying is that these plans have more of a foundation in solid facts and not a "shoot from the hip" assessment.

If you have no idea how to forecast projected delivery times then please don't bash my comments. its obvious that Eric at Berger does so don't belittle me due to your inability to understand the subject.

Len Backus its surprising you sided with Broz since your entire gun business is founded in concrete forecasting of customer completed builds. you state clearly "4-6 weeks for completion" and that is truely your marketing scheme to draw more customers to your builds. You even do "market Research" in the form of polls to determine what products to offer and which calibers. Accurate projections and time to market is the foundation of your business so please enlighten me as to how I shouldn't be upset or annoyed that these bullets along with multiple other products from this industry are consistently late?

From a purely business perspective, the cost of being late to market and not being able to perform as promised has two negative downfalls:

1. Lost revenue from the months that the product was supposedly available to be utilized

2. lost faith in the product and brand due to the late nature of the arrival. this is due to the consumer viewing the product as having some downfall from being later to market than described.

If you think i have no idea that this industry has an issue with delivering on time here is a list of manufactures that have been late on their orders over the last year:

H.S. Precision Long action bottom metal with magazing- promised september 2011 and still not available

7mm LRM headstamed brass from gunwerks made by Hornady (hornadys fault) promised November 2011 available June 2012

Pierce Long action Magnum bolt face- 2 months late

White oak armament SPR barrel now 4 weeks late and no delivery in sight

Hooper ordnance Long action magnum bottom metal 6 weeks late

What Im trying to get at here is that this is the only industry that has been able to get away with not delivering on time yet still charging full price!

think of it this way: you bring your car into a mechanic and need 3 things done, brakes, transmission fluid flush and new tires....he quotes you 2 days and it takes 3 weeks....your out of your car/truck for 19 days past the projected timeframe to get it fixed....how do you respond? do you pay full price? demand a discount? go somewhere else?

this is what Im trying to surface is that we all accept these lose ended promises and pay full price even when the work isnt delivered as expected (on time). When I send my money or parts so some one now I ask a simple question: "what is the delivery time? and if its not to me by your quoted delivery time then what will you do to make this right?" I usually ask for a 20% price cut if not delivered as promised and a progressive decrease in price the further late the product becomes. If they cant agree I simply ask why. then I evaluate the "why" and come to some agreement from there. such as if the smith is waiting on another manufacturer ( like a stock or barrel) I just ask for a confirmation that it was ordered and to see the projected delivery time. My cost per gun I own is between $2000-5000 so I dont buy cheap stuff so I expect performance from not only the person providing the firearm but its performance.

If anyone or manufacturer would like to talk about how to improve their abilities to forecast and determine time to market or time to delivery I am more than willing to help.