Very interesting read on all the threads. With a general lack of the hunting opportunities on big game and my state, I have to intently rely upon all others at LRH and their many experiences to somehow arrive at what I should be using in the field. I just need to process what I'm seeing correctly.
I'm not being swayed either way with monos or cup and core, except for the need to find the parameters where each one of these myriad bullets can operate best. Speed, distance, animal physical characteristics, terminal ballistics, my own experiences.
How I do that relies on threads like these. I don't recall any of my successful harvests as having remotely the exact same shot presentation in terms of bullet, speed, angle of attack or distance. Endless variables downrange before pulling the trigger on that particular shot. It's working OK to this point, but I can always do better (knowledge) in what I just sent down the barrel for that days' particular shot and where I put it.
Our kids and in extended families kids are zapping does in copper mono hunting units with .223's. Pure speed and shots within their abilities does well.
 
Very interesting read on all the threads. With a general lack of the hunting opportunities on big game and my state, I have to intently rely upon all others at LRH and their many experiences to somehow arrive at what I should be using in the field. I just need to process what I'm seeing correctly.
I'm not being swayed either way with monos or cup and core, except for the need to find the parameters where each one of these myriad bullets can operate best. Speed, distance, animal physical characteristics, terminal ballistics, my own experiences.
How I do that relies on threads like these. I don't recall any of my successful harvests as having remotely the exact same shot presentation in terms of bullet, speed, angle of attack or distance. Endless variables downrange before pulling the trigger on that particular shot. It's working OK to this point, but I can always do better (knowledge) in what I just sent down the barrel for that days' particular shot and where I put it.
Our kids and in extended families kids are zapping does in copper mono hunting units with .223's. Pure speed and shots within their abilities does well.
There is indeed a TON of variables that goi into it all. Trying to process it all and examine things and see what you can typically rely on and expect definitely helps. That's been my goal and I try to share what I've found and my own experiences and thoughts with others.
 
So I finally got to dissecting a Berger Hybrid not too long ago. What I found confirms my long suspicion as well as others I've talked to about them and their performance. There's an enormous cavity below the open tip and before the core. Not all OTM style bullets are like this, at least not to this degree. The jacket thickness is also a very uniform .026" from the base to the ogive.

What's most interesting is that this jacket has what I'm referring to as ribbing in the ogive. This is something similar to what I've seen with some solid copper bullets as a way to weaken the ogive to help produce better expansion, but not something I've seen with any of the many other lead core bullets I've dissected- not like this anyways. My theory is that Berger did this with the hybrid as a method to keep the ogive shape consistent to not only achieve the hybrid shape, but to ensure each bullet is consistent to one another during the swaging process. Also, these are indeed solid ribs that are engineered into the jackets and not caused from the metal folding in on itself from being shaped down into the ogive profile. That does occur sometimes, which I've seen, but not like this. It's unfortunately really hard to see them clearly in the pictures.

I also theorize that this helps balance expansion and penetration but doesn't compromise it like with the thick ogives on the post 2011 VLDs.

Up until now, I've felt comfortable, after seeing tons of success stories with this bullet, recommending it not only as a good option for hunting in general, but at impact velocities down to at least 1600fps. I wanted to wait to dissect it before making a more confident recommendation. After finally seeing exactly how it's constructed and the jacket thickness, I'm confident it'll be reliable to at least 1400fps, and perhaps even a bit lower with sufficient impact resistance (keyword there being sufficient). Keeping it above 1600fps though is definitely still a faster bet regardless.

Also, Berger has been clever with their marketing, like pretty much all manufacturers. The Elites, EOL, Classic hunter hybrid, hybrid target OTM, Juggernaut, etc, etc are all hybrid designs and they all have the same jackets and cores. They only differ slightly in profiles which just changes the BC a bit. Some are also pointed from the factory to close the tip a bit more and boost BC just a bit more.

Terminally, they all pretty much behave exactly the same. For all intents and purposes, a Berger Hybrid is a Berger Hybrid as far as terminal performance hunting is concerned. They SHOULD be good down to 1400fps with adequate impact resistance and the pointed ones down to 1600fps. Both styles will be good from those minimums to at least 2600fps before you'd ideally want to avoid the higher impact velocity shots like shoulders. Aim more behind the shoulder if possible if you'll be impacting above 2600fps. If you run a version with a sectional density of at least .280 and over, you can even be fine impacting well above 2600fps, but I'd still avoid shoulders.

So if anyone was still on the fence with this bullet, hopefully this boosts your confidence.

And yo clarify, this is not the same as any of the Berger VLD style bullets. I personally am not a fan of the VLDs. Berger had issues with their VLDs experiencing blowing up in flight prior to about 2011. That's around when it got extremely popular to run heavy for caliber high BC bullets and at very high velocities. Faster twist rates were needed to stabilize those longer bullets. The faster twist rate, higher velocities, and longer barrels used increased friction in the bore to the point the heat was transferring through the jackets and melting the cores, catering the bullets to blow up not far from exiting the barrel. Berger subsequently thickened the jackets to keep the heat from getting to the cores. Unfortunately, this process caused the jackets to actually thicker at the ogives during the core drawing process, and it created less reliable expansion. The Berger VLDs are much different in that regard to the newer hybrid ogive versions. I'm not a huge Berger guy, honestly, but their Hybrids are a much better and more consistent design. Below are some examples of post 2011 Berger VLDs and a Berger Hybrid I cross-sectioned. You can see how thick the jackets are at the tip of the VLDs. There's also a Hammer, Sierra Tipped GameKing, Hornady AMAX, and Hornady A-tip in a couple pics. The picture with two just jackets on their sides (last pic) are both VLDs and you can see how they're thicker near the tip. I have more stuff like this in other posts as well.View attachment 309011View attachment 309012View attachment 309013View attachment 309014View attachment 309015View attachment 309016View attachment 309017View attachment 309018

Thank you for sharing this great information, and on the other threads as well.
 
I'm curious as to the jacket thickness on that Sierra. It looks substantially thicker. Probably why I had trouble getting consistent expansion from them.
 
I don't believe Berger has discontinued the 140gr HVLD……I would certainly hope not. I have a different viewpoint on the VLD Berger's. Using predominately 6.5 caliber bullets, this bullet design continues to be a go-to for medium sized game over the past 10+ years. Having tried the various offerings(Hybrid.OTM) from Berger, as well as other bullet brands, the Berger 140HVLD(hunting) and the no longer available JLK VLD(similar J4 construction), have given me very consistent, accuracy, ballistic performance and very good short-long range terminal performance on game when used my 6.5 rifles, They certainly shed their energy differently between 200 and 1200 yards, but are effective in dispatching game non-the-less, producing one shot kills with proper bullet placement. This has been evidenced with more then a few dozen game animals taken from 200-1200 yards. This is not to say that the VLD is superior to the Hybrid designs, but I certainly don't believe it can be labeled inferior. IMO.
From the Berger catalog:
 
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I don't believe Berger has discontinued the 140gr HVLD……I would certainly hope not. I have a different viewpoint on the VLD Berger's. Using predominately 6.5 caliber bullets, for hunting from, this bullet design continues to be a go-to for medium sized game over the past 10+ years. Having tried the various offerings(Hybrid.OTM) from Berger, as well as other bullet brands, the Berger 140HVLD(hunting) and the no longer available JLK VLD(similar J4 construction), have given me very consistent, accuracy, ballistic performance and very good short-long range terminal performance on game when used my 6.5 rifles, They certainly shed their energy differently between 200 and 1200 yards, but are effective in dispatching game non-the-less, producing one shot kills with proper bullet placement. This has been evidenced with more then a few dozen game animals taken from 200-1200 yards. This is not to say that the VLD is superior to the Hybrid designs, but I certainly don't believe it can be labeled inferior. IMO.
From the Berger catalog:
I didn't say they discontinued any VLDs. They may have some of them, but what I meant was any NEW bullet they have released and will release will be of a hybrid ogive design rather than the VLD. They've apparently concluded it's simply better and they can even get higher BCs with it. Obviously newer technology will come out eventually and things will likely change again at some point. I just know that's their current plan moving forward. I have no idea if they'll discontinue and VLDs though. I'm sure the really high selling ones will not be.
 
I'm curious as to the jacket thickness on that Sierra. It looks substantially thicker. Probably why I had trouble getting consistent expansion from them.
I'm curious as to the jacket thickness on that Sierra. It looks substantially thicker. Probably why I had trouble getting consistent expansion from them.
That's a Sierra Tipped GameKing. They made the jackets on those significantly thicker than all their other bullets. This one measured .046" and a typical MatchKing, GameKing, or Tipped MatchKing measured around .026" thick.

The Tipped GameKings also have a harder lead alloy core than any other Sierra.

Sierra puts a 2000fps minimum impact velocity on these, and I agree with them. They're quite tough and need a good deal of speed and impact resistance to expand well. They're best in faster shooting cartridges and closer ranges.

If you haven't seen it, I have another post like this with many other bullets and jacket thicknesses posted. It's here:

 
I don't believe Berger has discontinued the 140gr HVLD……I would certainly hope not. I have a different viewpoint on the VLD Berger's. Using predominately 6.5 caliber bullets, for hunting from, this bullet design continues to be a go-to for medium sized game over the past 10+ years. Having tried the various offerings(Hybrid.OTM) from Berger, as well as other bullet brands, the Berger 140HVLD(hunting) and the no longer available JLK VLD(similar J4 construction), have given me very consistent, accuracy, ballistic performance and very good short-long range terminal performance on game when used my 6.5 rifles, They certainly shed their energy differently between 200 and 1200 yards, but are effective in dispatching game non-the-less, producing one shot kills with proper bullet placement. This has been evidenced with more then a few dozen game animals taken from 200-1200 yards. This is not to say that the VLD is superior to the Hybrid designs, but I certainly don't believe it can be labeled inferior. IMO.
From the Berger catalog:
Totally agree. The 140 HVLD out if my 264 win has been nothing short if magic on deer and elk, from 30 yards and out. I honestly can't remember having to shoot any of them more than once.
 
Old thread, but now a new variation has arrived that I'd like to understand how to deal with before running experiments.

I haven't needed to buy any for a few years but just bought another few boxes. Berger has changed the base to ogive on their 135gr 6.5 VLD Classic Hunters from .708 to .693, so .014 shorter. The overall length has not changed much at 1.320+/-. I can actually see the change in the shape of it with the naked eye.

Obviously this might not have changed the jump or maybe it has. I have a great load with the older shape. We know there are a few factors related to measurements of distance to lands / cartridge base to ogive, and seating die setting.

So I'm wondering if I should just try seating some to the same CBTO as my established accurate depth, or if I will have to go through a round (no pun intended) of seating adjustment experiments? Of course with a change in shape we can't assume that the die setting will remain the same to get the same CBTO.

Any thoughts on this?
 
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