Berger Hybrid Expansion Test @ 1180 yds

[bigngreen]

Very similar to the picture above

The problem is the barrel is inclined so you don't know how far the bullet travels since it is at the bottom!

One problem with water is that it tends to peel jackets off more than game!
A boat tail bullet will almost always shed the jacket in water if you give it enough speed, actually most jacketed bullets will!

edge.

When set up in the field everything is leveled to the rifle to get as direct a hit as possible, I'll be doing some more testing soon and I'll bring the camera this time to get range picks.

The water is more aggressive, but some bullets do perform the same in the water as in game, it is not very predictable though. For example the 270 140 gr Berger ends up looking exactly the same at the end of a barrel of water as under the of side of an elk based on recovered jackets and a little lead. The 30 cal 210 Berger blows like a bomb in water but not with enough constancy on game to continue trying. So water sheds some clues but is not definitive. It does show us worst case close range blow up, which is a variable I like to know as well.

 

[Broz]

. It does show us worst case close range blow up, which is a variable I like to know as well.

That is interesting you say this. I have way less concern at close range. Yes, I have heard the stories about bullets blowing up and the game running away. But growing up in the midwest and hunting the big timbers of southern Iowa and northern Missouri. I have taken my share of game close... VERY close. I have seen some aweful exits, but never seen a "bullet blow up and they runned off"

My concerns are getting some expansion at velocities in the 1800 fps range.

I truely feel we are getting an idea of " what the bullet might do" with these tests. I just dont feel we can reproduce the way a bullet will act in game. Simply way too many variables. Distance, velocity, angle of impact, no bone contact, some bone, alot of bone, meat then bone, meat, bone , vitals, more bone and more meat...ect. ect. Every shot is different, in fact I think it would be a real task to even try to get two exact hits to compare a bullet in an animal.

So, if I get some expansion from a bullet at lower, long range velocities, then I will be happy and spend my time practicing for bullet placement.

JMO
Jeff

 

[Broz]

The 30 cal 210 Berger blows like a bomb in water but not with enough constancy on game to continue trying.

If I read this correctly, we have way different views o the 210 VLD. I wont list the animals I have taken wih this bullet. Or even try to list the ones my son and friends have taken. But let me say, the bull in the lower left at 200 ~300 and the 210 berger did a great job. The 34" muley that Magnus has the story about at 974 yards. Just last fall in Wyoming, several antelope from 60 yards from a 30-387 Wby to 813 yards from a 300 win. I was either on the knife or close as we dressed and quarterd all these to get them on ice. I say don't give up on the 210 berger because you dont like what you seen when it hit water. I am such a fan of this bullet for all size game at distances up to 1200 yards, that I built a complete custom rifle just to shoot this bullet.

The heart of an Aoudad Ram at 200 ~300 yards with a 210 Berger

The rib cage inside of a 6x6 bull at 200~300 with a 210 Berger, I placed the first in the shoulder and he stood there, so I jacked in another. They landed 3" apart, both high shoulder hits. To me, this is a test of a bullet at close range. They both preformed exactly the same and this was after they both passed through the shoulder at pretty high velocity from a 30-378.

Real stuff here.

This is why I shoot Bergers, awesome accuracy and no tracking.

JMO
Jeff

 

[bigngreen]

The close range testing is just to get a feel for what happens, you get to see where the bullet starts shedding weight and you can see where the jackets seperate from the core. The main idea is to move out to 600 yrd and then to 1000yrds for mid and low velocity testing, I shot drops last weekend with my 270 WSM and 140 Bergers and it went great so the next time I get out I'll do long range testing.
So with resetable media (water) I should be able to shoot a group of bullets into it to see expantion and with the larger sample group it should also show reliabiltiy of expantion.

The 210 Berger is a little frustrating for me, we shot 4 or 5 mule deer does last year and with the typical behind the shoulder shot and not one opened, the second shot was put on the head or neck and then they opened big time. There are other who have had them zip through also, I don't know what makes the difference yet, we did not get it on elk last year. We have been working with the 185 Berger but the accuracy was better with the 210, I may buy another couple hundred and get them on a couple elk and try to get them on a long range deer or two, may also melpat trim them a touch.

I do love the Berger also, but I have had to do some tracking!

 

[bigbuck]

If I read this correctly, we have way different views o the 210 VLD. I wont list the animals I have taken wih this bullet. Or even try to list the ones my son and friends have taken. But let me say, the bull in the lower left at 200 ~300 and the 210 berger did a great job. The 34" muley that Magnus has the story about at 974 yards. Just last fall in Wyoming, several antelope from 60 yards from a 30-387 Wby to 813 yards from a 300 win. I was either on the knife or close as we dressed and quarterd all these to get them on ice. I say don't give up on the 210 berger because you dont like what you seen when it hit water. I am such a fan of this bullet for all size game at distances up to 1200 yards, that I built a complete custom rifle just to shoot this bullet.

The heart of an Aoudad Ram at 200 ~300 yards with a 210 Berger

The rib cage inside of a 6x6 bull at 200~300 with a 210 Berger, I placed the first in the shoulder and he stood there, so I jacked in another. They landed 3" apart, both high shoulder hits. To me, this is a test of a bullet at close range. They both preformed exactly the same and this was after they both passed through the shoulder at pretty high velocity from a 30-378.

Real stuff here.

This is why I shoot Bergers, awesome accuracy and no tracking.

JMO
Jeff

"Real stuff here"
That's what i'm interested in ! I will more than likely shoot some white tail very close probably bow range with the 210 berger this coming season out of a .300 RUM . I really don't understand all of the fuss concerning boolits that blow up ? Dead is dead right . I would rather have a boolit that blew up out to 125 yards and still expand out to say 1300 in my humble opinion this would be the perfect ALL around hunting boolit . I've shot way to many deer up close with the A-max out of my 300 RUM to say that the blow up boolits cause game to run off . from what i read folks view the 210 berger like they view the A -max and i will say that both are great hunting boolits.

Just my 2 cents that's all I can afford anyway

BigBuck

 

[Broz]

we shot 4 or 5 mule deer does last year and with the typical behind the shoulder shot and not one opened, the second shot was put on the head or neck and then they opened big time.

Wow, This makes no sence to me... I don't under stand the difference. You personally seen this on 5 deer and all results the same ? Were they all different ranges too?

Jeff

 

[bigngreen]

Wow, This makes no sence to me... I don't under stand the difference. You personally seen this on 5 deer and all results the same ? Were they all different ranges too?

Jeff

The first one I didn't even set my rifle up, my dad was shooting and I was spotting, 235yrds. I was expecting the rug to just get pulled big time but not the case, you could hear them hit, sounded like and arrow going in not the big wack I was waiting for. She took 3 hits in the rib cage, it did kill her but checking her out we could find no holes. We had to get her skinned and pull the hide out to find the holes, the holes in the rib cage looked like you just slide a knife in and out. One broken rib but it wasn't blown.

The second one that I witness was the same except he sent one over and put it on bone, that made the wacking sound we're looking for. The others I wasn't hunting with him but I skin and cut them all and they all looked alike, all at similar ranges and with similar hits. I think that we are in a zone that sucks, if we were closer of maybe 600 yrds they may have worked, we were in a narrow range. I want to say we were running them 2860 fps, not really humping them out there. I didn't get pics of them either, I have a real good cell camera now so I'll have a back up.

My 270 WSM with 140 Berger look like you unleashed a tornado inside them, even elk. The 6mm the same thing, cleans there clock!

I think a couple other guys had them zip through also but it seem that most the function just like what your showing. I know two other guys that load the 185 and over the 210 because of this. The melpat on a 210 is .062 and the 185 is .068. I don't know I was bummed we didn't get it on elk, but this year is looking good for 30 cal Bergers on elk!

 

[Broz]

BigNGreen, I don't know what to say. Hmmm, I took two Axis bucks in Texas in 08 , along with the aoudad, and a black buck. Then a few wt deer in mo and I lost count on antelope. Mine were from a 30-378 @3050 MV, my sons 300 win MV is 2900 with them. Plus I took a few Muleys too. We have never took a second shot except for the 6x6 I posted, and as you can see he was standing waiting o fall over and I gave him another. He did manage to wobble a step or two on his way down though. I guess I have just never seen what you have with them. Maybe you have real soft deer.. or very tough ones.

Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

Are you both shooting the VLD hunting bullet? Any chance bigngreen is shooting the heavier/thicker jacketed 210gr Match bullet?

I've shot a couple black bears with the 210 VLD hunting bullet. Pretty explosive up close on the one bear. Just about right on the other bear at 425 yds.

 

[bigngreen]

Are you both shooting the VLD hunting bullet? Any chance bigngreen is shooting the heavier/thicker jacketed 210gr Match bullet?

I've shot a couple black bears with the 210 VLD hunting bullet. Pretty explosive up close on the one bear. Just about right on the other bear at 425 yds.

Ya, I checked to make sure I was shooting hunting VLD. We ran all of them out to so I couldn't cut them and measure anything.
I was bumming, I was ready to watch a serious Berger smack down, we kept looking at each other like what is going on, maybe we didn't light the fuse right.

I was also throughing around the idea that the tips may have been a little beat up and closed of, hence the meplat trimming.

When they open something is in the dirt!!!

 

[Broz]

I have only used the hunting VLD. I was just thinking of last fall in WY for antelope. We camp and have quite the hunt. In our camp here is what we had for rifles. My sons 300 win with 210 bergers, a friend with a 30-378 accumark with 210 bergers, another friend with a custom barreled 30-378 with 210 bergers and me with a 300 win with 210 bergers, plus a 338 rum with 300 smk's. So 4 out of 5 were loaded with 210 bergers. If my memory is correct that was like 10 antelope shot with the 210's. They were from 60 yards to 813 all one shot and not one traveled over 30 yards.

This pic was one of mine, she was DRT , right behind the shoulder, big exit with speed goat parts for 15 feet past her.

BnG, I must say you better try them again.

Jeff

 

[bigngreen]

I have only used the hunting VLD. I was just thinking of last fall in WY for antelope. We camp and have quite the hunt. In our camp here is what we had for rifles. My sons 300 win with 210 bergers, a friend with a 30-378 accumark with 210 bergers, another friend with a custom barreled 30-378 with 210 bergers and me with a 300 win with 210 bergers, plus a 338 rum with 300 smk's. So 4 out of 5 were loaded with 210 bergers. If my memory is correct that was like 10 antelope shot with the 210's. They were from 60 yards to 813 all one shot and not one traveled over 30 yards.

This pic was one of mine, she was DRT , right behind the shoulder, big exit with speed goat parts for 15 feet past her.

BnG, I must say you better try them again.

Jeff

If your getting them open on goats then deer should not be problem, trust me I was pulling my hair out! We're far from giving up on them, I've kinda got the Berger bug and your sample group is vastly greater than ours so I'll get some more 210's in bound I guess. The 300 WBY loves the 210, but dad shoots it most of the time and he don't care for the pounding, he may have to suck it up or I need to get a brake on it

I have high hopes for tags this year, we went all in for goats and deer,we'll hopefully pull the elk B to go with a bull tag. If I get the elk B I'm going to get serious about a good LR bull since I can put a cow in the freezer and horde my bull tag. Usually I make sure the freezer is full before thinking about horns

 

[Chas1]

Broz, nice looking lope and great looking rig.

Bigngreen, Keep us posted on what you find the next time you shoot them.

 

[mmmooretx]

I have only used the hunting VLD. I was just thinking of last fall in WY for antelope. We camp and have quite the hunt. In our camp here is what we had for rifles. My sons 300 win with 210 bergers, a friend with a 30-378 accumark with 210 bergers, another friend with a custom barreled 30-378 with 210 bergers and me with a 300 win with 210 bergers, plus a 338 rum with 300 smk's. So 4 out of 5 were loaded with 210 bergers. If my memory is correct that was like 10 antelope shot with the 210's. They were from 60 yards to 813 all one shot and not one traveled over 30 yards.

This pic was one of mine, she was DRT , right behind the shoulder, big exit with speed goat parts for 15 feet past her.

BnG, I must say you better try them again.

Jeff

Just curious on the 300 win and the 210 Bergers, how far off the lands is the sweet spot for your gun?
Thanks.