Berger close up on game performance

[Ingwe]

I was just joking that you could not understand "Why people don't match their bullet to the animal and shot condition" and I don't understand why someone would take a poor/lower percentage shot.

lol I hear you my friend. Same here, if I didn't have a good kill shot/angel I don't shoot. I guess that on a perfect flat broadside shot any bullet will do the job since just a bit of skin and flesh, maybe a rib bone, then the vitals.

even a 22lr in the ribs will kill a deer

 

[LeddSlinger]

Unless you get a 3/4 facing away shot, hit a bone, and the bullet explodes in the paunch before reaching the chest cavity

Then I bet you would wish that you were using an all copper or a bonded bullet

Nope. Berger will handle that too. The last bull elk I shot was quartering facing towards me. Couldnt safely get a high shoulder shot and he was two steps away from disappearing into a tree line. Put it right on his lower right front shoulder and let the 338 cal 250gr Berger Elite Hunter fly from 311 yards away. It easily punched clean through the thick lower shoulder bone and into the vitals. He wheeled, ran about 10 yards then crashed hard down the steep mountainside into a pile where he got hung up on a tree trunk.
Entry hole was a little smaller than a tennis ball with the thick lower shoulder leg bone severed clean in half. Vitals were absolutely destroyed. Perfect performance.

 

[gillettehunter]

This is cut and pasted from another forum I'm a member of. It is my shooting.
I will start this with a few observations. All bullets are designed with a use in mind. There is no one size fits all in bullets. I have no problems with other bullets. I have taken Barnes TTSX's and Nosler accubonds to Africa. Both have served me well. This last trip I took Bergers. I usually get extremely good accuracy and good results with them. Bergers are often used in longer range hunting and are designed to expand reliably at lower velocities. If you plan to use them I will strongly suggest that you heed the next observations:
1) Use heavy for caliber bullets. I used 180 grainers in my 7mm SAUM. If you use a faster bigger .28 caliber cartridges then use their 195 grainers. In .30 caliber use the 215 grain hybrid. Easy to load and deadly effective on game. In a .26 caliber use the 140's or 156's. Apply the same to other calibers.
2) Always check the points. Bergers are a hollow point design. Occasionally the point will be "clogged or closed". That bullet, if not opened, will act like a solid and pencil through an animal. A small drill bit should be used to make sure they are all open. If closed then use that one for practice or drill it open.
3) Do not expect reliable expansion at over 3000 fps. You are more likely to get over expansion at higher velocities along with poor penetration. My SAUM runs the 180's at 2900 fps. That is about right. My .30 Nosler runs the 215's at 2990. Works well too. I would not run them at 3200 fps and expect reliable close range expansion.
On to the point of this post. 16 animals of assorted sizes were taken with my SAUM and the 180 gr bullet's. They are as follows:
1) Cape eland cow at 469 yards. Hit slightly further back than wanted. Down and dead quickly.
2)Cape eland bull at 511 yds. Heart shot. Dead in less than 20 yds. Pretty impressive.
3)Springbock at 175-200 yds. Broadside shot slightly back and high. Down in its tracks.
4)Duiker spotlighted at maybe 40 yds quartering to me. High shoulder down in his tracks.
5)Vaal Rhebuck at 313 yds. Hit way back top of back. Spine hit. Down in his tracks.
6) Klipspringer at 269 yds. A little far back and high. Down and done in place.
7)Blesbuck cow at 130 yds? Back a little and a little high. Down immediately with no fuss.
8) Bull Livingston eland. Huge animal. 75 yds. First hit was high shoulder. Sraggered him. Went perhaps 75 yds and He appeared to be staggering when I hit him again up high mid body which put him down.
9)Hartebeest cow at 200 yds. Quartering slightly to me. Hit mid way up behind the shoulder. Went 40-50 yds.
10)2nd Hartebeest cow. Broadside at 80-90 yds. Hit behind shoulder. Went 30 yds or so.
11)Hartebeest bull at 150-170 yds quartering to me. Low shoulder into the heart. Went maybe 60 yds.
12) Bushbuck at 200 yds or a little more. Hit a little high behind the shoulder. Went perhaps 30 yds.
Mike used my rifle on this hunt with the 180 HVLD's. Mikes animals as follows:
1)Waterbuck at 150 yds broadside. Hit behind shoulder. Went about 70 yds.
2)Puku at 80-90 yds perhaps. Quartering hard away. Hit in front of hind quarter lining up on far shoulder. Went about 40 yds.
3)Bushbuck at 120 yds. Broadside. Behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
4)Lechwe at 230 yds. Behind shoulder half way up. Down in its tracks. Kicked twice.
I will add the following NA animals for additional consideration:
A) 6.5-06 w/ 140 grain bullet. Bighorn ram at 100 yds. Broadside. Hit back too far. Got liver. Went perhaps 100 yds.
B) 180 in the SAUM. Antelope at 130 yds. A little high behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
C)180 in SAUM Whitetail doe. 75 yds facing me. Down in her tracks.
D) 180 in SAUM WT buck. 300 yds. 1 shot in leg and one mid body. Went perhaps 30 yds.
E) 215 gr in .30 Nosler. Bull moose at just over 100 yds. Quartering to me. In front of shoulder. Went less than 20 yds.
F) 6.5 SS w/ 156 gr. Whitetail buck at 20 yds. Quartering away. High behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
G) 6.5 w/ 156 gr Pronghorn buck. Broadside. Hit slightly low behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
H) 6.5 w/ 156 gr. Pronghorn doe at 325 yds. Behind shoulder a touch high. Down in her tracks.
Notice that I needed more than 1 shot on a wt buck that I screwed up on and the Livingston eland that likely didn't need it.
Bruce

 

[Ingwe]

Nope. Berger will handle that too. The last bull elk I shot was quartering facing towards me. Couldnt safely get a high shoulder shot and he was two steps away from disappearing into a tree line. Put it right on his lower right front shoulder and let the 338 cal 250gr Berger Elite Hunter fly from 311 yards away. It easily punched clean through the thick lower shoulder bone and into the vitals. He wheeled, ran about 10 yards then crashed hard down the steep mountainside into a pile where he got hung up on a tree trunk.
Entry hole was a little smaller than a tennis ball with the thick lower shoulder leg bone severed clean in half. Vitals were absolutely destroyed. Perfect performance.

can't expect better than those results can you? Good job

That said, that is a 250gr bullet from a 338...I wonder if a 270 or 6.5 would have done the same?

You guys sure do make a good argument for Bergers though.

PS: would you trust a similar non-bonded bullet with same shot...for example an old Core-loc or Nosler Ballistic Tip?

 

[FURMAN]

can't expect better than those results can you? Good job

That said, that is a 250gr bullet from a 338...I wonder if a 270 or 6.5 would have done the same?

You guys sure do make a good argument for Bergers though.

PS: would you trust a similar non-bonded bullet with same shot...for example an old Core-loc or Nosler Ballistic Tip?

Not me.

 

[mtmuley]

Bergers are great entertainment. mtmuley

 

[Ingwe]

Not me.

In your opinion, what makes a non-bonded Berger perform/penetrate any differently than a non-bonded Ballistic Tip?

I'm not breaking you balls here, you killed allot of game and I'm interested in your opinion

 

[LeddSlinger]

can't expect better than those results can you? Good job

That said, that is a 250gr bullet from a 338...I wonder if a 270 or 6.5 would have done the same?

You guys sure do make a good argument for Bergers though.

PS: would you trust a similar non-bonded bullet with same shot...for example an old Core-loc or Nosler Ballistic Tip?

I have been shooting animals with Berger bullets since the first year they were featured on Best of the West hunting many years ago. About 90% of the animals I have taken were with Berger 6.5mm 140gr VLD bullets from a 6.5 Remington Magnum at around 3210 fps from the muzzle. The other 3 animals were taken with the 338 250gr EH from a 338-375 Ruger at 2980 fps muzzle velocity.

There was no hunting, target, hybrids, OTM, etc back when I started using Berger...Just the one type of yellow box Berger bullets. I was extremely skeptical about using a target bullet for hunting, but after trying them for a few years just on antelope, realized these bullets were the real deal. Started using Berger for all animals after that.

But if I'm being honest, I would not have taken the same shot on the bull elk mentioned above if my 6.5 Rem Mag was in hand at the time. The 140gr 6.5mm VLD may have done just fine on that same shot, but knowing how thick elk leg bones are, I would not have taken the chance. With the 338 250gr bullet, I knew there was gonna be a ton of energy with a big bullet at 311 yards so I didn't hesitate when having to take a shot from an undesirable angle of entry.

I absolutely would NOT have taken that shot using a Nosler Ballistic Tip or even an Accubond. I have shot a lot of animals with them in the past. They open up violently like a Berger, but the difference is that the polymer tip initiates expansion immediately upon impact. Berger always gives excellent penetration of 4-6" before violently opening up.

 

[mtmuley]

Yeah, I bought my first box of Bergers in 2006 or 2007. Used them for target practice after the first debacle on an animal. To each their own. Bullets have come a long way since then. mtmuley

 

[Priley]

Unless you get a 3/4 facing away shot, hit a bone, and the bullet explodes in the paunch before reaching the chest cavity

Then I bet you would wish that you were using an all copper or a bonded bullet

All goes back to bullet placement. Oh, and HELL NO on copper bullets!! Barns bullets are the worst... The only bullet I ever lost a bull with. 3 180 gr Barns bullets out of a .300 win mag at 50/100/150 yards and the elk was finally dispatched with a 115 gr Berger out of a 25-06. The barns bullets didn't open and just punched pencil sized holes through the animal. Oh yea, I will take a Berger every time!! DRT!!

 

[bearcat2]

I shoot 180 VLDs out of a 7mm STW at approx 3100 fps. I've shot I about 10 elk and around the same number of deer (mixed bag, muley and whitetail) with that load as well as had some other people shoot game with my rifle. Of those elk two were shot in the timber at around fifty yards while all the others were between 475 and 820 yards. Several deer were shot between 20 and 200 yards while the rifle and load has shot at least 10 deer between 300 and 770. I'm not actually a huge fan of Berger's performance on game, they seem to kill fairly well but I don't see a lot of knock down.
At close ranges I have seen them grenade, after 300 they usually exit and the only ones I have recovered are elk that have hit a big bone like one or both shoulders, those have all been mushroomed perfectly. I shot an elk last year at 625, first shot quartering away a little went through the lungs and far shouler and exited, second shot quartering on took out the near shoulder and lungs again, recovered under the hide on the far side. I love their long range accuracy and they perform just like I want at longer ranges, I don't hesitate at a quartering on shot, I've never had a quartering on shot that I shot in the point of the shoulder that didn't result in a DRT on either deer or elk. At close ranges I am a little nervous about trying to punch through an elk shoulder though.

Bottom line it is really difficult to make a bullet that will perform the same at 3100 fps as it will at 1800 fps. Berger makes a long range bullet, it performs admirably at lower velocities and longer ranges. Everything is a compromise though and they tend to perform more like the ballistic tips at close ranges, and while that is all right on perfect broadside shots I want a bullet that will hold together and punch through bone when needed. I'll continue to use them because I use that rifle primarily for longer ranges, but I don't use them in my timber rifles.

 

[FURMAN]

I am just going to make a clarifying statement to my love for Bergers. I always pick a heavy for caliber bullet. I am not a fan of shooting a light bullet fast. I would feel this way about any bullet. For instance I would NEVER should a 180 in a 30. I would NEVER shoot a 140 in a 7. If those are the bullet weights you want to shoot step down to a lower caliber.

 

[Bigeclipse]

My wife says I need big holes with lots of blood so I won't have to come get her to track it LOL. She swears I cannot see blood at night unless there is a lot of it. She is right.

This is 100% the same for me haha. Anytime I have a tracking job where I go further than 50 yards at night I just stop and call my wife. She can find a needle ***** of blood in a pile of leaves. I have never needed a tracking dog because of her haha.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I am just going to make a clarifying statement to my love for Bergers. I always pick a heavy for caliber bullet. I am not a fan of shooting a light bullet fast. I would feel this way about any bullet. For instance I would NEVER should a 180 in a 30. I would NEVER shoot a 140 in a 7. If those are the bullet weights you want to shoot step down to a lower caliber.

Doesn't make too much sense if you are talking a smaller cartridge. 180 in a 308 is a monster sized bullet and becoming very slow. 180 30cal to me is not small but mid range for a 30cal.