Berger Bullets Announces Launch of a New Ammo Company
- Thread starter Melesia.Cisneros
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
300stw
Well-Known Member
I have sent 2 emails to the provided address, haven't herd a word, and didn't get an undelivered message about my emails,,,
300stw
Well-Known Member
got a reply from melissa, 7mm 168gr berger classic hunters, maybe sometime in october,,,
i really need some for my sons rifle before that,,,,
i really need some for my sons rifle before that,,,,
Jluck
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2014
- Messages
- 434
This is contradictory to your first post... "Berger is launching"... So which is it? who owns this new company? Two separate companies can be owned by the person(s) or parent.
Good luck with this new venture.
HoytFlinger
Well-Known Member
wow...I can't believe some folks on here. You all act like Berger owes you something. Congrats ABM! Hope you do well in this venture.
Being very loyal customers, maybe they do owe us something. A company should be careful about who it turns its back on.
HoytFlinger
Well-Known Member
They haven't turned their backs on anyone. How do you figure that? Even if every member of this forum shot Bergers it would still be just a drop in the barrel compared to their entire customer base.
Maybe people have forgotten that businesses are in the business to make money.
Not talking about folks JUST on this forum. Customers are very important to a business. That is where they MAKE their money.
If they used their 45% increase in production to make ammo to sale in a new market. Then they did turn their backs on current customers who wait for months for some of their product. Just because they say "Oh we didn't do that"! Doesn't mean they didn't.
Your right they are in business to make money and can do whatever they want. But I have no reason to wish them success. I don't know them personally and have no financial gain in their success. I'm just out of bullets, so I shop somewhere else and if I find a better product during that shopping, I will never come back to Berger. Multiply that by thousands and you can see why alienating a segment of your customers is not a good idea.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Name ONE bullet company OTHER than Berger who comes to this forum with anything let alone the coming here with guys like Stecker and Litz who not only are at the top end of Berger as a company but they are competitive as shooters as well. Berger owns us NOTHING but what we pay for!!!
The fact that they come to the forum is the something they are giving back and that is good. By "owe us something" I don't mean materialy, I think loyalty is a better word. The other poster said "owe us something" which started this exchange.
I think we have different perspectives here because I personally owe my customers everything AND I am very loyal to them. After all they pay my mortgage, buy the gas in my truck, allow me to enjoy things in life like hunting, and put food on my families table.
I just happen to work in a business were customer satisfaction and repeat business is EVERYTHING. Maybe in your business and Berger's, it does not matter.
HoytFlinger
Well-Known Member
I would almost bet my annual salary that there will not be enough people leaving Berger bullets to even fill a pallet of bullet boxes. You not being able to find bullets does not equate to alienation. My local store has them stocked almost every day of the year. Have you had time to think about why the ammo line came out? New companies or lines usually come about to fill repeated requests of customers. I bet the ammo line came out due to this and Berger's desire to satisfy its customers' requests.
In this market, my guess is it came out because they need somewhere to stash the all the cash they have been making hand over fist due to hoarding. They are enjoying a windfall.
Berger bullets are not on every shelf in every store. In the West they have a higher demand. I actually have enough Berger bullets to get me thru hunting season, just have to curtail practice shooting some. I am speaking somewhat for those people who do not have any at all.
Also, not saying Berger will go under because of this issue. They will lose some customers and gain others. If the ammo venture is a bomb, they will have made a bad financial decision and it will cost them. They will probably be kissing some of that easy money goodby. That's just business risk.
But even if they used 50% of that 45% new production capacity for a ammo venture, they were holding back product that could have been distributed to their loyal customer base. Personally this whole scenario seems a** backwards to me. Seems customers have more loyalty to Berger than Berger has to customers. Go figure. You would think they were Ford motor company or something.
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
It is very important to me that I set the record straight. I understand and share the frustrations of anyone who sees ABM as taking away from our reloading customers. I hope this post helps to explain our actions.
First, it is important to understand that the lack of bullets and ABM are two totally separate situations. What I mean by this is that our lack of supply is the result of an unprecedented surge in demand. Fortunately, after nearly two years, this demand has come back down to earth. It is still higher than previous norms but at least it is below our output. So, the good news is that when you combine our increase in output with the reduction of orders the result is that more bullets will be available to the reloader.
It is also important to keep in mind that we continue to expand our capacity even beyond where it is now. We've recently added another jacket making machine and are in the process of building 3 more new bullet machines. This is in spite of the decline in orders.
Additionally, I'll point out that we haven't released any new bullets during the last year specifically because we didn't want to make a bad situation worse. This is in spite of the fact that we have over 100 new bullets planned with several having been ready to go during this time. We didn't release these bullets because we are aware and concerned about the issues that several people have pointed out in this thread.
Lastly, regarding the bullets, it is most important to me and all of us at Berger that during a time when we could sell far more than we made, we did not compromise our quality in an effort to put out more quantity. Expanding our output is a deliberate and time consuming process that goes beyond simply having more machines. With more machines comes more people and with more people comes heavy and intensive training not to mention that we only keep the good ones so we have to break a few eggs to make a proper omelet if you understand my meaning.
ABM is a completely different situation. Because the members of this forum are important to me and to Berger I will share with you the evolution of ABM. I am not providing this information as an excuse but rather so that their is no speculation as to why we did what we've done. Frankly, I am deeply disturbed by those who suggest that money is a motivator but I'll accept that they don't know me, Bryan, Walt or David well enough to understand our true motivations.
ABM was born by Bryan Litz several years ago in a deliberate attempt to showcase what Berger's could do in loaded ammo for Special Forces snipers. This was during an evaluation for a particular project. For whatever reason, when Berger bullets were tested having been loaded by large ammo factories the performance was inconsistent. Frustrated by this result, since we know how well they shoot for others, Bryan started making ammo for this project and for other target competition shooters.
During this effort, Bryan's ammo quickly earned a reputation for consistency to the extent that it became clear that his one press operation needed a more robust support structure. It was decided that Berger would invest in ABM making it more capable of handling larger volume demand. Now when I say "larger volume demand" I am talking about less ammo than a dozen active shooters might use in a year.
The effort to bring ABM to a more robust yet still small operation began. This started before the demand surge hit. This journey was to be a learning experience that I personally and ABM was lucky to survive (it's accurate to say that we aren't out of the woods yet). Over the following years, ABM has pursued permission to operate in over a dozen cities which resulted in ABM moving twice. For those of you who have not tried to set up a commercial ammo loading operation I have a word of advice. Don't bother unless you have resources and the patience of Job.
The multiple roadblocks and frustrations we faced are far too numerous to list in this post (which is already too long). When you combine this effort with the fact that in the midst of our trying to get ABM to the point where it could operate we were also faced with the same supply problems that you all face. We were considered no different than an individual shooter and in fact it wouldn't matter if they regarded us differently somehow because as the saying goes you can't get blood from a stone. The materials didn't exist.
Over a long period of time and an amount of money that would make you spit up your coffee, ABM had produced no sales and had lost most of the customers that Bryan had established when he started ABM. It was only within the last few months that due to the general, overall level of demand having fallen that we were able to start securing materials to make ammo. This included Berger bullets.
So at this point we are faced with certain realities. The demand for reloading materials is falling across the board. ABM which has received an enormous amount of energy and resources is waiting in the wings to become operational finally. Our objectives for both Berger and ABM haven't changed. It became clear to me that it was time to launch ABM.
Some might say that I allowed this to happen too early. That I should have waited for all of our customers to be surrounded in bullets before we'd ever consider adding ABM to our efforts. To this I can only respond that I understand the frustration and share it. I've been in this industry for nearly 2 1/2 decades and I've seen much. It is a judgment call that by starting operations of ABM now that the stars would align over the coming months (falling demand meeting rising output) to the extent that we will be able to supply everyone who wants to use Berger Bullets. I may be forever judged by my sense of timing but I am responsible for when such things happen and I take full responsibility for the result.
There are two other things to keep in mind. Unlike another company I won't name, when Berger makes bullets for ABM we also make these bullets for ALL of those who have orders for them. So if ABM gets bullets then all of our reloading customers who are waiting for these bullets gets them at the same time. I understand that making more bullets for ABM means that we aren't making something else but if you had the order and supply data in front of you that I do, I'd predict that you'd make the same call.
The other thing is that ABM is a powerhouse when it comes to making consistent, high quality ammo. This might leave the impression with some that it is also a powerhouse production operation. I don't like to show my underwear but in this case I'll admit that ABM is making less ammo than a group of active competition shooter will use in a year. It is my hope that this changes and I expect that it will, but for now the amount of bullets that ABM is taking from reloaders is far less than most would estimate.
Lastly, it is very important to me that you understand why ABM exists. It is solely because Bryan and I (along with several others in our organization) believe strongly that the Special Forces sniper and operator is among the bravest and most capable precision rifleman in the world. Not only do they have to demonstrate extreme marksmanship skill under the worst of conditions, they are unique in the sense that their target and other supporting their target are eager to shoot back at them.
This heroism and service to our country and as far as I am concerned, my family is why ABM exists. At our core, Berger is about performance. We believe that these American heroes deserve the best performance available, period. We know the capabilities of the ammo they are using and we can do better. When ABM ammo is used in the field by these incredible individuals to achieve a successful result, all of the headaches, frustrations and expenses we faced in making ABM operational are well worth it.
The fact that we offer hunting and target ammo is merely a means of keeping ABM solvent. Some may suggest that it is all about money. In one way I'll agree. Money is necessary to fund such efforts. It is also necessary to fund the numerous ways (too many to list here) where Berger gives back to the shooting community. If it were about greed, I wouldn't bother responding to these posts.
Regards,
Eric
P.S. It is unfortunate that our many efforts have kept me away from this forum for so long so for those of you who don't know, I am the one responsible for all things Berger and ABM.
First, it is important to understand that the lack of bullets and ABM are two totally separate situations. What I mean by this is that our lack of supply is the result of an unprecedented surge in demand. Fortunately, after nearly two years, this demand has come back down to earth. It is still higher than previous norms but at least it is below our output. So, the good news is that when you combine our increase in output with the reduction of orders the result is that more bullets will be available to the reloader.
It is also important to keep in mind that we continue to expand our capacity even beyond where it is now. We've recently added another jacket making machine and are in the process of building 3 more new bullet machines. This is in spite of the decline in orders.
Additionally, I'll point out that we haven't released any new bullets during the last year specifically because we didn't want to make a bad situation worse. This is in spite of the fact that we have over 100 new bullets planned with several having been ready to go during this time. We didn't release these bullets because we are aware and concerned about the issues that several people have pointed out in this thread.
Lastly, regarding the bullets, it is most important to me and all of us at Berger that during a time when we could sell far more than we made, we did not compromise our quality in an effort to put out more quantity. Expanding our output is a deliberate and time consuming process that goes beyond simply having more machines. With more machines comes more people and with more people comes heavy and intensive training not to mention that we only keep the good ones so we have to break a few eggs to make a proper omelet if you understand my meaning.
ABM is a completely different situation. Because the members of this forum are important to me and to Berger I will share with you the evolution of ABM. I am not providing this information as an excuse but rather so that their is no speculation as to why we did what we've done. Frankly, I am deeply disturbed by those who suggest that money is a motivator but I'll accept that they don't know me, Bryan, Walt or David well enough to understand our true motivations.
ABM was born by Bryan Litz several years ago in a deliberate attempt to showcase what Berger's could do in loaded ammo for Special Forces snipers. This was during an evaluation for a particular project. For whatever reason, when Berger bullets were tested having been loaded by large ammo factories the performance was inconsistent. Frustrated by this result, since we know how well they shoot for others, Bryan started making ammo for this project and for other target competition shooters.
During this effort, Bryan's ammo quickly earned a reputation for consistency to the extent that it became clear that his one press operation needed a more robust support structure. It was decided that Berger would invest in ABM making it more capable of handling larger volume demand. Now when I say "larger volume demand" I am talking about less ammo than a dozen active shooters might use in a year.
The effort to bring ABM to a more robust yet still small operation began. This started before the demand surge hit. This journey was to be a learning experience that I personally and ABM was lucky to survive (it's accurate to say that we aren't out of the woods yet). Over the following years, ABM has pursued permission to operate in over a dozen cities which resulted in ABM moving twice. For those of you who have not tried to set up a commercial ammo loading operation I have a word of advice. Don't bother unless you have resources and the patience of Job.
The multiple roadblocks and frustrations we faced are far too numerous to list in this post (which is already too long). When you combine this effort with the fact that in the midst of our trying to get ABM to the point where it could operate we were also faced with the same supply problems that you all face. We were considered no different than an individual shooter and in fact it wouldn't matter if they regarded us differently somehow because as the saying goes you can't get blood from a stone. The materials didn't exist.
Over a long period of time and an amount of money that would make you spit up your coffee, ABM had produced no sales and had lost most of the customers that Bryan had established when he started ABM. It was only within the last few months that due to the general, overall level of demand having fallen that we were able to start securing materials to make ammo. This included Berger bullets.
So at this point we are faced with certain realities. The demand for reloading materials is falling across the board. ABM which has received an enormous amount of energy and resources is waiting in the wings to become operational finally. Our objectives for both Berger and ABM haven't changed. It became clear to me that it was time to launch ABM.
Some might say that I allowed this to happen too early. That I should have waited for all of our customers to be surrounded in bullets before we'd ever consider adding ABM to our efforts. To this I can only respond that I understand the frustration and share it. I've been in this industry for nearly 2 1/2 decades and I've seen much. It is a judgment call that by starting operations of ABM now that the stars would align over the coming months (falling demand meeting rising output) to the extent that we will be able to supply everyone who wants to use Berger Bullets. I may be forever judged by my sense of timing but I am responsible for when such things happen and I take full responsibility for the result.
There are two other things to keep in mind. Unlike another company I won't name, when Berger makes bullets for ABM we also make these bullets for ALL of those who have orders for them. So if ABM gets bullets then all of our reloading customers who are waiting for these bullets gets them at the same time. I understand that making more bullets for ABM means that we aren't making something else but if you had the order and supply data in front of you that I do, I'd predict that you'd make the same call.
The other thing is that ABM is a powerhouse when it comes to making consistent, high quality ammo. This might leave the impression with some that it is also a powerhouse production operation. I don't like to show my underwear but in this case I'll admit that ABM is making less ammo than a group of active competition shooter will use in a year. It is my hope that this changes and I expect that it will, but for now the amount of bullets that ABM is taking from reloaders is far less than most would estimate.
Lastly, it is very important to me that you understand why ABM exists. It is solely because Bryan and I (along with several others in our organization) believe strongly that the Special Forces sniper and operator is among the bravest and most capable precision rifleman in the world. Not only do they have to demonstrate extreme marksmanship skill under the worst of conditions, they are unique in the sense that their target and other supporting their target are eager to shoot back at them.
This heroism and service to our country and as far as I am concerned, my family is why ABM exists. At our core, Berger is about performance. We believe that these American heroes deserve the best performance available, period. We know the capabilities of the ammo they are using and we can do better. When ABM ammo is used in the field by these incredible individuals to achieve a successful result, all of the headaches, frustrations and expenses we faced in making ABM operational are well worth it.
The fact that we offer hunting and target ammo is merely a means of keeping ABM solvent. Some may suggest that it is all about money. In one way I'll agree. Money is necessary to fund such efforts. It is also necessary to fund the numerous ways (too many to list here) where Berger gives back to the shooting community. If it were about greed, I wouldn't bother responding to these posts.
Regards,
Eric
P.S. It is unfortunate that our many efforts have kept me away from this forum for so long so for those of you who don't know, I am the one responsible for all things Berger and ABM.
Jluck
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2014
- Messages
- 434
Eric,
Thanks for the post. I still think ABM should have been kept private to supply special forces/snipers or whomever until the projectile supply had stabilized at retailers, B&M and internet alike. The people who say any and all flavors of Berger is just sitting on there local stores racks are full of ****. Or maybe there priced to stay on the rack.
I scour the internet daily and have hit every store I could find on a 3300 mile road trip, Both large and small shops had nothing to very little in the way of Berger bullets "just sitting there". Owners of the small shops said they "cant touch 'em". If the orders are getting filled I can't find them nor can many many others.
I hope things get back to normal and I'm sure you will have success with ABM. I would like to get back to shooting Bergers and hope there soon available as the competitors bullets are now.
Thanks for the post. I still think ABM should have been kept private to supply special forces/snipers or whomever until the projectile supply had stabilized at retailers, B&M and internet alike. The people who say any and all flavors of Berger is just sitting on there local stores racks are full of ****. Or maybe there priced to stay on the rack.
I scour the internet daily and have hit every store I could find on a 3300 mile road trip, Both large and small shops had nothing to very little in the way of Berger bullets "just sitting there". Owners of the small shops said they "cant touch 'em". If the orders are getting filled I can't find them nor can many many others.
I hope things get back to normal and I'm sure you will have success with ABM. I would like to get back to shooting Bergers and hope there soon available as the competitors bullets are now.
