Apex Outdoors New Bullet Launch - .308 161gr Haymaker

[mcdil]

As suspected, the results are lining up with load data for the 155 HPBT MK. Glad to see that working out as 1900+ fps out of the Blackout with a 161gr long, solid copper bullet is moving along pretty good. It looks like 15.8gr - 16.2gr may have a sweet spot. With the low-speed terminal performance where it's at, really whatever results in the most consistent and accurate load will be the best option and cover all potential field conditions for the Blackout. Chasing velocity just isn't that important for this bullet, and that's a good thing for the AR platforms, especially.

In fact, due to the great terminal performance witnessed at 1050 fps, we're curious how these would perform purposely loaded subsonically. While we think that's giving up a bit more than necessary for a lower audible signature, we recognize the desire for many to stay subsonic with their platforms. This bullet wasn't designed for that purpose, but it may be a good option, nonetheless. It will be interesting to see if this bullet behaves the same at say 850-900 fps impact.

An update on our end as well, we've put the radar on this bullet and have settled into a G1 BC of .310, plenty good for the intended purpose with this large, open, hollow pointed bullet in the Blackout and similar low power 30 cals.

 

[Petey308]

Wish I still had my 300 Blackout, although it still might be a good option for my 308w AR-10 if it feeds well.

It reminds me of the LeHigh Defense Controlled Chaos, but improved. Is that a fair assessment?

 

[mcdil]

Wish I still had my 300 Blackout, although it still might be a good option for my 308w AR-10 if it feeds well.

It reminds me of the LeHigh Defense Controlled Chaos, but improved. Is that a fair assessment?

Definitely a fair assessment. Overall, when we designed this particular bullet, we wanted to maximize it for a single cartridge, the Blackout. Yes, it can be used in other cartridges/applications, but no other criteria burdened the design, only the Blackout, so it gave us cart blanche authority for total optimization in the Blackout. This bullet does need to stay under an impact speed of ~ 2400 fps or less, or the material integrity will get overpowered, so in your 308 Win above, look for calm, reduced loads to work as intended. I'd target 2300 fps max, if I were loading it myself. The Blackout can't even come close to approaching that velocity, so it's a nonissue in that regard.

What we noticed in the Blackout from competitors were lighter bullets (less than 125gr) and heavier bullets (195+gr). The lighter weights for supersonic flight, and the heavies for subsonic. An option in the middle didn't exist. Keep in mind, this material likes less than 2400 fps for optimum performance based on the current geometry. In order to achieve that, we wanted to add weight to keep us appreciably off the 2400 fps limit. However, in our opinion, a homogenous copper bullet in a dedicated heavyweight for subsonic flight, while possible, Lehigh has proven that, is a bit limiting overall. I'm not sure a cup and core alternative isn't more beneficial in that particular instance. Hard to say, at least in my limited experience in that area.

Since we weren't hamstringing ourselves to subsonic flight, we based the design on supersonic flight and focused on maximizing the bullet mass out the front of the nose. The Blackout SAAMI specs are quite liberal in that regard and help quite a bit. In typical Apex fashion, we also reduced the bore friction as much as possible and minimized the bullet mass intrusion into the case capacity for a homogenous 161gr projectile. This enables an extremely stout velocity profile out of the Blackout for a 161gr solid copper bullet (>1900 fps in a 16" barrel). Due to the front nose design, our petals actually line up, in weight, more closely to Lehigh's Controlled Fracture 195gr petals, but we have an additional petal to boot. Furthermore, the impact speed is far greater than the 195gr for vastly improved shock effect if loaded supersonic, as intended by design. The base weight and terminal profile still provide plenty of penetration for anything the Blackout should be used for. For hogs and deer at close to moderate ranges, it would be difficult to find a more pleasant combination to shoot that has outstanding terminal performance.

Interestingly enough, yorke-1's testing has shown excellent performance at velocity levels we weren't sure we could achieve, ~ 1050 fps. We targeted 1200 fps minimum in the design, knowing this would cover anything loaded supersonically. Not only did it perform well at the lower velocity, but it also showed no signs that it was on the edge of the performance window. Having observed that, we wonder if this bullet would in fact serve a subsonic load profile as well. As previously mentioned, it wasn't part of the design scope, but for those that really want subsonic rounds only, it could prove to be an option. We just haven't been able to validate that at this point.

 

[Petey308]

Definitely a fair assessment. Overall, when we designed this particular bullet, we wanted to maximize it for a single cartridge, the Blackout. Yes, it can be used in other cartridges/applications, but no other criteria burdened the design, only the Blackout, so it gave us cart blanche authority for total optimization in the Blackout. This bullet does need to stay under an impact speed of ~ 2400 fps or less, or the material integrity will get overpowered, so in your 308 Win above, look for calm, reduced loads to work as intended. I'd target 2300 fps max, if I were loading it myself. The Blackout can't even come close to approaching that velocity, so it's a nonissue in that regard.

What we noticed in the Blackout from competitors were lighter bullets (less than 125gr) and heavier bullets (195+gr). The lighter weights for supersonic flight, and the heavies for subsonic. An option in the middle didn't exist. Keep in mind, this material likes less than 2400 fps for optimum performance based on the current geometry. In order to achieve that, we wanted to add weight to keep us appreciably off the 2400 fps limit. However, in our opinion, a homogenous copper bullet in a dedicated heavyweight for subsonic flight, while possible, Lehigh has proven that, is a bit limiting overall. I'm not sure a cup and core alternative isn't more beneficial in that particular instance. Hard to say, at least in my limited experience in that area.

Since we weren't hamstringing ourselves to subsonic flight, we based the design on supersonic flight and focused on maximizing the bullet mass out the front of the nose. The Blackout SAAMI specs are quite liberal in that regard and help quite a bit. In typical Apex fashion, we also reduced the bore friction as much as possible and minimized the bullet mass intrusion into the case capacity for a homogenous 161gr projectile. This enables an extremely stout velocity profile out of the Blackout for a 161gr solid copper bullet (>1900 fps in a 16" barrel). Due to the front nose design, our petals actually line up, in weight, more closely to Lehigh's Controlled Fracture 195gr petals, but we have an additional petal to boot. Furthermore, the impact speed is far greater than the 195gr for vastly improved shock effect if loaded supersonic, as intended by design. The base weight and terminal profile still provide plenty of penetration for anything the Blackout should be used for. For hogs and deer at close to moderate ranges, it would be difficult to find a more pleasant combination to shoot that has outstanding terminal performance.

Interestingly enough, yorke-1's testing has shown excellent performance at velocity levels we weren't sure we could achieve, ~ 1050 fps. We targeted 1200 fps minimum in the design, knowing this would cover anything loaded supersonically. Not only did it perform well at the lower velocity, but it also showed no signs that it was on the edge of the performance window. Having observed that, we wonder if this bullet would in fact serve a subsonic load profile as well. As previously mentioned, it wasn't part of the design scope, but for those that really want subsonic rounds only, it could prove to be an option. We just haven't been able to validate that at this point.

That's an excellent response, and more than I expected. Thank you.

I was definitely struggling to find a bullet I was truly happy with when I had a 300 Blackout. It's one of the main reasons I ended up abandoning it altogether. The 135gr Terminal Shock from DRT was the best I found that I was most happy with.

My AR-10 only has an 18" barrel, and that's the shortest and slowest capable 30cal I currently own right now, that's the only reason I thought of it. I'd rather hold out for the Afterburner, but the Haymaker still sounds like a worthy bullet to try out.

I will reread this later to better absorb it all. Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate the extra details like that lol.

 

[Petey308]

We have an "alternative methods" deer season here in Missouri, and pistols are allowed, including AR pistols. I may look into building one again in 300 Blackout and test out these Haymakers.

 

[yorke-1]

Definitely a fair assessment. Overall, when we designed this particular bullet, we wanted to maximize it for a single cartridge, the Blackout. Yes, it can be used in other cartridges/applications, but no other criteria burdened the design, only the Blackout, so it gave us cart blanche authority for total optimization in the Blackout. This bullet does need to stay under an impact speed of ~ 2400 fps or less, or the material integrity will get overpowered, so in your 308 Win above, look for calm, reduced loads to work as intended. I'd target 2300 fps max, if I were loading it myself. The Blackout can't even come close to approaching that velocity, so it's a nonissue in that regard.

What we noticed in the Blackout from competitors were lighter bullets (less than 125gr) and heavier bullets (195+gr). The lighter weights for supersonic flight, and the heavies for subsonic. An option in the middle didn't exist. Keep in mind, this material likes less than 2400 fps for optimum performance based on the current geometry. In order to achieve that, we wanted to add weight to keep us appreciably off the 2400 fps limit. However, in our opinion, a homogenous copper bullet in a dedicated heavyweight for subsonic flight, while possible, Lehigh has proven that, is a bit limiting overall. I'm not sure a cup and core alternative isn't more beneficial in that particular instance. Hard to say, at least in my limited experience in that area.

As a follow-up to Mark's comments regarding the impact velocity threshold for the Haymaker design, I'll throw out some results I've seen. I want to be very clear that I did this knowing that I was shooting the bullet at velocities well outside the design parameters. This was more like "destructive testing" than expansion testing. I just wanted to see how they'd perform when pushed significantly beyond their intended velocity.

These pictures are from a 161gr Haymaker being fired from a 1:10" twist 300 PRC with a muzzle velocity of 2930fps and an impact velocity of roughly 2780 fps. The gel blocks are 10% synthetic gel from Clear Ballistics.

The best way I can think of to describe how the bullet performed would be to call it a solid copper Berger. I've never seen a monometal bullet behave like this! LOL The fragments are similar to what I've seen with VLD/match style impacts in the gel, except they're extremely sharp.

I was surprised by how deep the shank penetrated. It did become unstable and began tumbling at about the 9" mark before continuing on for another 12". This isn't a surprise considering how the bullet fragmented and essentially "tore" pieces off of the shank.

It's worth noting that the Haymakers shot extremely well in my 300 PRC. After seeing what happened in the gel bocks, I'd personally stick with the <2400 fps recommendation Apex is giving. I have to admit though, I bet this bullet would make a SPECTACULAR varmint/coyote bullet in any of the 300 mags! A part of me wants to load some up in a 300 RUM at max speed and go find a porcupine.....

 

[FEENIX]

As a follow-up to Mark's comments regarding the impact velocity threshold for the Haymaker design, I'll throw out some results I've seen. I want to be very clear that I did this knowing that I was shooting the bullet at velocities well outside the design parameters. This was more like "destructive testing" than expansion testing. I just wanted to see how they'd perform when pushed significantly beyond their intended velocity.

These pictures are from a 161gr Haymaker being fired from a 1:10" twist 300 PRC with a muzzle velocity of 2930fps and an impact velocity of roughly 2780 fps. The gel blocks are 10% synthetic gel from Clear Ballistics.

The best way I can think of to describe how the bullet performed would be to call it a solid copper Berger. I've never seen a monometal bullet behave like this! LOL The fragments are similar to what I've seen with VLD/match style impacts in the gel, except they're extremely sharp.

I was surprised by how deep the shank penetrated. It did become unstable and began tumbling at about the 9" mark before continuing on for another 12". This isn't a surprise considering how the bullet fragmented and essentially "tore" pieces off of the shank.

It's worth noting that the Haymakers shot extremely well in my 300 PRC. After seeing what happened in the gel bocks, I'd personally stick with the <2400 fps recommendation Apex is giving. I have to admit though, I bet this bullet would make a SPECTACULAR varmint/coyote bullet in any of the 300 mags! A part of me wants to load some up in a 300 RUM at max speed and go find a porcupine.....

LOL! You might have coined a new descriptor, solid copper Berger. Thank you, Sir, for sharing.

Ed

 

[Petey308]

As a follow-up to Mark's comments regarding the impact velocity threshold for the Haymaker design, I'll throw out some results I've seen. I want to be very clear that I did this knowing that I was shooting the bullet at velocities well outside the design parameters. This was more like "destructive testing" than expansion testing. I just wanted to see how they'd perform when pushed significantly beyond their intended velocity.

These pictures are from a 161gr Haymaker being fired from a 1:10" twist 300 PRC with a muzzle velocity of 2930fps and an impact velocity of roughly 2780 fps. The gel blocks are 10% synthetic gel from Clear Ballistics.

The best way I can think of to describe how the bullet performed would be to call it a solid copper Berger. I've never seen a monometal bullet behave like this! LOL The fragments are similar to what I've seen with VLD/match style impacts in the gel, except they're extremely sharp.

I was surprised by how deep the shank penetrated. It did become unstable and began tumbling at about the 9" mark before continuing on for another 12". This isn't a surprise considering how the bullet fragmented and essentially "tore" pieces off of the shank.

It's worth noting that the Haymakers shot extremely well in my 300 PRC. After seeing what happened in the gel bocks, I'd personally stick with the <2400 fps recommendation Apex is giving. I have to admit though, I bet this bullet would make a SPECTACULAR varmint/coyote bullet in any of the 300 mags! A part of me wants to load some up in a 300 RUM at max speed and go find a porcupine.....

Great info and it's good to see how it performs on both sides of extreme, even in gel. Thanks for doing that test and sharing.

 

[asd9055]

I could try them in my Blackout (CMMG, 16 inch) but dont have any pigs in my place

 

[yorke-1]

It's been a while, but I have an update on the Haymakers. I carried a 300 Savage Encore loaded with the Haymakers for a bit during deer season, but never saw anything worth shooting. I came really close to whacking a tiny little buck just to test the bullets, but even I wouldn't shoot a deer that small. LOL I've been rolling around with the 300 BLK in the front seat as a truck gun any chance I could get, just waiting for something to test them on. I finally got a chance at a pair of raccoons Friday night to test the Haymaker. The muzzle velocity with this load is 1909 fps.

The first one was climbing up a tree about 20 yards away but down an embankment, so I was shooting down at it. The bullet entered between the shoulders and exited at the base of the sternum. The damage was substantial.

 

[yorke-1]

The second one was on a branch quartering towards me. This bullet entered the right shoulder and exited just behind the ribs on the left side. There was a secondary exit from one of the petal fragments on this one. The raccoon was thrown back almost 10 feet from the branch. The bullet penetrated about 12" before exiting, so having the secondary exit of a petal 4" from the shank was consistent with what I saw in the gel.

 

[sable tireur]

I skipped this topic when it was first posted because I was too busy with client work and didn't really have an interest in the design.

I read this through last week and was thinking about the cartridge/bullet relationship based on initial velocity and target energy. I do shoot the Blackout occasionally but usually just subsonic loads, not related to hunting.

I got a good shipment of brass in and as I was sorting and putting it into my stock, I handled the 6mmBR brass and remembered I was getting it for my 30BR test rifle. So I ran some numbers just out of curiosity and find that this cartridge loaded with your bullet amounts to a nearly perfect 2,300 - 2,400 fps muzzle velocity from a 16" barrel. This would make an excellent hunting handgun even if you shorten the barrel slightly.

Enjoy!