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Berger 195's failing?
- Thread starter WeiserBucks
- Start date
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As most have seen Broz has documented around 50 elk kills with the 215s without a single failure I believe. He has stated that before bullets are taken to the field to hunt with the meplats are inspected for debris and cleaned up with a pin drill. Ive never had a problem with the SMK's or bergers not opening up on deer and hogs up close or far in various calibers as long as the tips are cleaned and opened up. Even with 300gr smks on 70lb yearling does up close. Some of my rifles are mag fed but I always hunt with hand fed rounds single shot, unless I'm using a-maxs
tom m.
Well-Known Member
Excellent point. We need to check that they're not getting dinged when feeding also, as I've seen that too.
Tom
I have killed everything from the smallest doe antelope to a full grown Wild Bison with the 195's and have had nothing but great success. With how popular this bullet is (and all bergers are) and with this many people using them your bound to have someone have a issue. If it's the user or bullet, we will never know as every story of a failure is identical and starts with "it was a perfect hit right behind the shoulder and then it ran off". Hell, even a Tacoma breaks down every once in a while so who knows. If you hit bone, they explode, no real way around it with the bullet make up, It's what a Berger has always done. I have never heard of a EOL Berger "penciling" through an animal and I can't even imagine that honestly but to each their own. Shot placement is everything. Remember, people kill animals with a bow and arrow every year so if your not making humane kills with a 195 grain bullet at 2900 FPS then work on shot placement as a hole through the heart kills anything and everything.
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Hit a vital, even with a 30 cal "pin hole" and you won't be shooting a animal 3 times
More power to your 100% success experience. That's fabulous for you. Means little to hunters that have had less than 100% fabulous positive experiences.
My problems weren't fabrications due to animals that ran off, never to be recovered. Neither were the animals photographed after-the-kill in this Thread.
Archers don't kill game animals with field points. There's no meaningful comparison between an archer killed animal and a bullet killed animal. Not in the method of death or the distances engaged.
Shot placement isn't enough when an expanding bullet doesn't expand, and the shot was placed under every reasonable expectation the hunting bullet would expand.
My problems weren't fabrications due to animals that ran off, never to be recovered. Neither were the animals photographed after-the-kill in this Thread.
Archers don't kill game animals with field points. There's no meaningful comparison between an archer killed animal and a bullet killed animal. Not in the method of death or the distances engaged.
Shot placement isn't enough when an expanding bullet doesn't expand, and the shot was placed under every reasonable expectation the hunting bullet would expand.
How would you know? All you've had is 100% expansion...
I've hunted with many types of bullets as I imagine you have and I've had things not expand in my life as have many people, which led me to use these Bullets. Like I said above, even a Tacoma breaks down sometimes so I'm not saying these EOL's are "Thor's hammer" every time... If your trying to start a argument over the statement that a hole through the middle of your heart won't kill you deader than dead than I can't help ya at all and there's no point in trying..
"shot placement isn't enough when a expanding bullet doesn't expand" could not be a more ridiculous statement. If it doesn't expand it means it pinholed right through. Yes a bullet not expanding is a disaster as it means you just reduced the chance of a drop dead kill to the diameter of your bullet. I shoot these exploding Berger Bullets for the same reason most people do, which is the great BC and terminal damage but to state that shot placement isn't enough, you have to have a bullet expand???
And as to your archery/broadhead comment which goes in line with your shot placement doesn't cut it comment, watch a couple ballistic gel shots of an arrow and a couple from a Barnes or a solid traveling at 2900 FPS. The wound channel from that bullet will do far more damage than that arrow. Hole in the heart is a hole in the heart. Sorry these Bullets aren't cutting it for you, try ELD's.
longshot406
Active Member
I'm assuming lungs are vitals? Shot placement is not an issue on these close under 500 yard broadside animals shot with bench rest accurate long range rifles. The bullet holes in the elk I provided pictures of earlier were both behind the shoulder lung shots with no reaction so it took a 3rd shot in the shoulder to put her down and stop her from from walking away with the herd! These are meat hunts so we wait for broadside pocket shots. Maybe I'll just resort to head shots!
tom m.
Well-Known Member
You just quoted (Leo), the best score shooter to ever live IMO. Plenty of folks come to HIM to help with their shot placement problems lol. By the way, of his 11 world records, 9 were shot with bergers, so it's not like he's not a fan.
http://www.mt1000yd.com/records/
Tom
I like Bergers. They help with the "shot placement " because they shoot good! Regardless if the bullet goes thru the heart or lungs,if they don't "Fail"you should have a dead critter. But after seeing the 195"s consistent poor performance time after time, yes, I switched to the eld"s. I will still use the 195 for ELR steel shooting but not hunting.
You're here to help? Why didn't you say so? That would have made all the difference!
The take away I'm seeing is making sure the meplat open.
I personally may have to change bullets if the cause is from the feeding of the cartridge. My 300wm is control fed so it might have damaged the tip going into the chamber. A 323yd shot with a muzzle velocity of 3050fps...I should have had more than 18.1 grains of lead left against the hide.
I've killed hundreds of animals with Sierra and Nosler bullets. When I've recovered bullets, it's always been nothing but jacket. The lead has always been missing. My Aoudad did have a clean hole into the chest (hide and rib cage)...but why only a tiny piece of lead on the off side. It was a perfect crease of shoulder entry...lead found at off side crease.
I personally may have to change bullets if the cause is from the feeding of the cartridge. My 300wm is control fed so it might have damaged the tip going into the chamber. A 323yd shot with a muzzle velocity of 3050fps...I should have had more than 18.1 grains of lead left against the hide.
I've killed hundreds of animals with Sierra and Nosler bullets. When I've recovered bullets, it's always been nothing but jacket. The lead has always been missing. My Aoudad did have a clean hole into the chest (hide and rib cage)...but why only a tiny piece of lead on the off side. It was a perfect crease of shoulder entry...lead found at off side crease.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Same with a single 7mm "pin hole" in a deer...Except it fell over and died before it even hit the ground, and never moved.
