Has anyone had problems with the 180 grain hunting VLD failing to fragment. I have got a batch at the moment that just won't kill, The goats I've been shooting (all shoulder shots) get bowled over then after about 5 seconds recover enough to run away...... Like I meen run 50 - 100 meters. The 2 I shot tonight were at 340 yards and 640 yards. Both were soild shoulder shots and both were on video. The load I'm using is sending them at 3115 f/sec. A mate has had this problem too, but only with this batch. He was using the 168 VLD tonight and the results could not have been more different to my 180's. He shot a goat at 508 yards and a pig at 770 yards and the only direction they went was down. This is not a shot placement problem but a bullet failure and I'm interested to know if others have come across this problem.
Berger 180 gr VLD
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ICANHITHIMMAN
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If everything you shot is dead and it did not run more than 50 yards how is it a failure? Are you sure you didnt buy target VLDs.
The first whitetailed deer I ever shot was broad side at 30 yards it ran 400 yards before it stoped. It was shot with a 12g through the heart.
I'm not clear. Did you recover these goats to verify the hits or were they not recovered but you know for sure of shot placement? There is a chance that the bullets penetrated a minor distance, blew up, and left a lot of vitals intact, thus the running off. It's really anyone's guess as to why this is happening, but is it possible you bought the target VLD and not the hunting VLD as mentioned?
The box says "Hunting" but they may have been packaged wrong.
No I didn't recover the goats. The shots were recorded on video, the hits were good.
The bullets just penciled straight through
With a muzzle velocity of 3115 the 180 gr at 650 yards carries 1977 ft/lbs of energy and 2225 f/sec. A 85 lb goat will not take one step if the bullet does it's job. The 180 VLD is usually a great killer but this batch just does not kill quickly. To me that's a failure!
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younggun
Active Member
well if its the batch thats the problem stop using that batch. switch to ur buddies 168s for now and order a different set of the 180s. and then with the new batch it will confirm ur thoughts that its just the batch. if its not then at least you have eliminated a possibility.
Eric Stecker
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Ross has sent us an email reporting this result. The bullets are Hunting bullets that were made in Sept 2009. The only reason this is important is because we don't have any of this lot to inspect and Ross lives in New Zealand making a return or exchange very difficult.
We have received a few similar reports over the years. One of Bryan's projects is to understand why these results occur. A big challenge in getting to the bottom of this situation is the fact that it occurs so rarely. Infrequent occurances provide minimal data from which to draw a conclusion. We have not received a report of failure for this lot prior to this report.
This is a very important situation and we will continue to work on this issue until we have a 100% performance rate. It is my understanding that no hunting bullet has reached this level of repeatable performance and we are pleased with the very low number of "failures" that our bullets produce.
Regards,
Eric
We have received a few similar reports over the years. One of Bryan's projects is to understand why these results occur. A big challenge in getting to the bottom of this situation is the fact that it occurs so rarely. Infrequent occurances provide minimal data from which to draw a conclusion. We have not received a report of failure for this lot prior to this report.
This is a very important situation and we will continue to work on this issue until we have a 100% performance rate. It is my understanding that no hunting bullet has reached this level of repeatable performance and we are pleased with the very low number of "failures" that our bullets produce.
Regards,
Eric
trebark
Well-Known Member
so you shoot the goat, he goes down, gets up, runs 50 yards, you say the bullet penciled threw and you didn't recover the animal?
Post the video.
Post the video.
Eric, with all due respect, that is a great goal but I don't think the partition, aframe, northfork, barnes, or anyone else can make that claim. I could be wrong though.
I had a bad episode with an Accubond. Shot a buck less than a 100 yards on a quartering shot and he got away. Shot placement was "a chip shot" and it's my opinion had it been an Aframe, Partition, TSX, or several others, I would have recovered that deer.
So, while you express a very high goal, I honestly don't think it is achievable. But 99% would be great.
Eric Stecker
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Derek,
I understand and appreciate what you are saying. Given the number of reports of "failures" compared to the number of Hunting bullets we've sold we are definately above the 99% performance number which is good.
However, each one of the few reports that we've received eats at us. Walt taught me that if you're going to do something you might as well do it right. I believe strongly that we are obligated to pursue this situation until we fully understand why it happened.
We may not be able to make a bullet that is truly 100% effective but at least we can educate those who have issues as to why it did not perform as expected.
Eric
I understand and appreciate what you are saying. Given the number of reports of "failures" compared to the number of Hunting bullets we've sold we are definately above the 99% performance number which is good.
However, each one of the few reports that we've received eats at us. Walt taught me that if you're going to do something you might as well do it right. I believe strongly that we are obligated to pursue this situation until we fully understand why it happened.
We may not be able to make a bullet that is truly 100% effective but at least we can educate those who have issues as to why it did not perform as expected.
Eric
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I don't understand how you can tell that they penciled though if you don't recover the animal and open things up.
A valid point. Maybe a look a the video would help clear things up. If the hit was clearly to the mid-shoulder area - should've been a dead animal.
Over my hunting years (more than 35 years of experiences), I've recovered the following animals and documented non-expansion or very limited expansion on the following game/bullet/shot combinations - first hand. All three animals required follow-up killing shots.
Dall Sheep hit at 13 yds with a .280 RCBS Improved 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip - drilled broadside center of the ribcage.
Black bear hit at 220 yds with a .338 Win Mag 200gr Nosler Ballistic Tip - hit slightly back and high from center of ribcage on a broadside shot.
Dall Sheep hit at 355 yds with a .300 Win Mag 210gr Berger Hunting VLD - hit mid-height toward back of ribcage on a broadside shot.
I don't normally post about bullet performance on an animal I didn't recover. But I make this exception to my self-imposed guideline. I have very high confidence I had a 162gr Hornady A-max fail to expand on a black bear this past spring at a distance of 565 yds. Rifle was .280 RCBS Improved. Broadside shot. I had everything pre-arranged and ready to go and danged if this black bear didn't step into the very opening I had pre-arranged for and even set my scope turrets for. At the shot the bear was instantly on his rear legs looking for danger. Took two quick jumps. Stood on rear legs again and searched for danger. Then bounded into the alders. I waited more than two hours to see if the bear would show up in any other openings on the mountainside, I walked over to where the animal was at the time of the shot. Spent some time looking for evidence of a hit. Nothing. I then set a target on the trunk of a small tree. Walked back to where I'd shot from and took two shots. One shot hit 1" from my point of aim. The second shot hit 3" from my point of aim. After seeing the location of these hits on target, I spent another hour looking for evidence of a hit on the bear, and for the bear himself. Nothing. That bear never showed himself again from a distance of 565 yds during my close to three hours of observation - after the shot. In my experience, a miss on a bear at that distance - the animal isn't all too spooked and often will re-appear after 10-20 minutes. Sometimes they won't even run off on a clean miss.
Anyhow, my point is to substantiate the facts of life: bullets which have been designed/intended to expand can and do occasionally fail to expand even when impact velocities are much higher than the normally accepted and advertised minimum expansion velocities.
But to have two bullets fail to expand back to back? Never had that happen yet.
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bolsachica
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I was in Wyoming three weeks ago and shot a Bighorn ram from 260 yds. with a 180 Berger VLD loaded in a Greybull Precision 7mm rifle. The ram was dead before it hit the ground. When we skinned him there was a small entrance hole, no exit hole, and incredible damage to the vitals. We recovered a small piece of the bullet. It did as Berger advertised and virtually exploded inside the animal causing massive shock. We were really impressed.
Fiftydriver
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Last winter I was able to participate on an exotic sheep cull hunt. I was using my 338 Allen Xpress with the 300 gr SMK loaded to 2980 fps. We killed 15 sheep that were roughly in the 50 to 90 lb range. Five of these sheep were hit SOLIDLY, flattened them to the shot but they got back up and three of those were finished off with a final shot.
When we recovered the sheep, ALL had HUGE exit wounds yet they still were able to recover and travel siginficant distances. It was not the fault of the shooter, not the fault of the bullet it was simply a bad choice of bullet for such light game. IT was clear that the SMK was expanding but it took 6-8" before it really started to open up and as such we were getting very large exit wounds but by that time the bullet had already traveled through the vitals.
I would be curious if the bullets actually penciled through or if their expansion was delayed enough the vitals were just not getting the normal trama that we are used to with most berger bullets.
I believe the Berger hunting bullets are designed for better penetration then the match bullets, in this case it would make sense.
It is a bit interesting how many out there believe that if a bullet does not plant an animal in its tracks, its a failure, even though the animal died within a quoted 100 meters or less..... How this is bullet failure is beyond me, just sounds like a bit different bullet terminal performance then the 168 gr which likely pretty much came apart on impact which is good on these lighter animals.
I would rather have a bullet that is sure to fully penetrate the animal with good expansion and kill it within 100 yards then to have a bullet that is designed to come apart on impact. Kills can be dramatic, so can game losses.
Would say the bullet performed pretty well, your expectations may have been a bit high is all. I am glad I make rifles and not bullets, you can never make everyone happy as a bullet maker. Either there is not enough penetration, to much, not enough expansion, to much bullet weight loss, man, would not want to try to deal with that.
When we recovered the sheep, ALL had HUGE exit wounds yet they still were able to recover and travel siginficant distances. It was not the fault of the shooter, not the fault of the bullet it was simply a bad choice of bullet for such light game. IT was clear that the SMK was expanding but it took 6-8" before it really started to open up and as such we were getting very large exit wounds but by that time the bullet had already traveled through the vitals.
I would be curious if the bullets actually penciled through or if their expansion was delayed enough the vitals were just not getting the normal trama that we are used to with most berger bullets.
I believe the Berger hunting bullets are designed for better penetration then the match bullets, in this case it would make sense.
It is a bit interesting how many out there believe that if a bullet does not plant an animal in its tracks, its a failure, even though the animal died within a quoted 100 meters or less..... How this is bullet failure is beyond me, just sounds like a bit different bullet terminal performance then the 168 gr which likely pretty much came apart on impact which is good on these lighter animals.
I would rather have a bullet that is sure to fully penetrate the animal with good expansion and kill it within 100 yards then to have a bullet that is designed to come apart on impact. Kills can be dramatic, so can game losses.
Would say the bullet performed pretty well, your expectations may have been a bit high is all. I am glad I make rifles and not bullets, you can never make everyone happy as a bullet maker. Either there is not enough penetration, to much, not enough expansion, to much bullet weight loss, man, would not want to try to deal with that.
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