Bedding Question

[Dr. Vette]

So , my question to those wo just set the action in the stock is how do you get precise alignment of the action screws to action ? Btw , I don't know why it is quoting me as I didn't use quote .

I thought I might be able to get a quick photo, but I'd have to set up a rifle for a "pretend" bedding job. So, let me try it with words.

To start, I always use blue easily removable masking tape.

I also use two "hard points" and one "soft point" when bedding, and will describe that below.

I use tape on the barrel just like you, and this is my first "hard point." Add or subtract tape so that the barrel is aligned in the channel and the action is aligned level in the action. Take a look at the ejection port for this, as the goal is to have the ejection port parallel to the edge of the stock. I've gotten to then placing blue tape along the barrel channel and using a Sharpie to mark the barrel tape and this side tape so that I can be sure the barrel goes the same level when reinstalling. It's easy to have the barrel go too far down or not far enough once you add bedding material.

My next hard point is the forward action screw. This screw aligns the action both front/back, side/side and its rotation. Whether this is a Vanguard with the screw in the recoil lug or a Savage or Remington with the screw in the action it doesn't matter. Using cutoff bolts as mentioned before I then wrap a bolt with as much tape as it takes to just fit inside the forward action screw. It should be able to slide in once the bolt is attached, and I will practice this with the barreled action. If you can set the action in place with the bolt taped as thick as possible, then you're a long way. Now is also a good time to see where you need to remove material from the stock so that there is no pressure on it when bedding and you will get bedding material on all sides. Make sure when you install this taped up bolt that you screw it in to the action so that your wrapped tape is right up there next to the action, and prevents bedding material from dripping down the action screw hole. Imagine a bolt with an inch of tape 1/4 way down the threads and as fat as I can fit in the action screw hole and you get the idea. Of note, I've recently started to use a bit of Teflon tape on the threads that go into the action in order to remove the bit of slop that always seems to be present in the bolt to action threads.

By taping up the forward action bolt to the largest diameter possible it centers the bolt in the hole in the stock. I've usually inspected the floorplate or similar enough to see how it aligns with the floor to verify no major misalignment. Often you can even slide the floorplate over the cutoff bolt to verify that the alignment is good.

The rear bolt in the action will get taped, but not to the same level as the forward bolt. You want to be able set the action in the stock easily while keeping the front two hard points, and as a result there are usually less layers of tape on this bolt. Remember, 2 points makes a line while 3 makes a plane or a triangle. You don't want that, so don't allow any pressure on the rear bolt. With this technique I've never had a problem with rear screw alignment or fitting any floorplate after bedding.

The soft point on most rifles tends to be the tang or the rear of the action. This, along with the tape on the barrel, will set the level of the barrelled action in the stock, not the action screws/bolts. The barrelled action will really only touch the stock here and at the barrel tape (and, of course, the forward action bolt which isn't really a part of the action). I call this the soft point because its exact left/right location will depend on your two hard points, and I'm not trying to tell it where to line up on a side-to-side basis.

The nice thing about bedding without a floorplate in place is that after cleaning up the top of the action I'll often flip the rifle over and clean inside the magazine well so that there is only a nominal amount of material to file away later. The Devcon I use has such good hold on the barreled action already at this point that it doesn't move, even without tape or similar.

I may still use a Dremel tool to clean large chunks of bedding but also use hand files to finish it. However, one slip of a hand file can screw up the bedding or a wood stock too.

After a couple of hours of sitting I'll often remove the action bolts, remove the tape, and reinsert them so that I can use them to tap out the action later on.

Every one I've done has been well aligned, stress free and had no issues with alignment. No tape or bungees holding the action, no screws tightened and inducing stress.

I hope that helps.

 

[mrb1982]

Excellent!

This question has to do more how consistency of the epoxy. I will use a theoretical situation to try to explain my question thoroughly.

So lets say I am to the point in which I am ready to drop the barreled action into the stock. I have everything prepped. I have filled the epoxy in the recoil lug area(approximately half full from the videos and articles I have read), and I set the lug in the recess, snug down the action with the front screw a little. Lets say when I first set it in there, I didn't get the lug just right in the recess as I dropped it in. Lets say I need to just adjust it a little bit from front to back, or turn it a hair side to side to get it all lined up perfectly. Will the expoxy in the recess have a consistency that makes it possible to kind of fill in around the lug, or am I screwed and have to start over? Does this question make sense?

I know this is kind of a weird question but I haven't ever worked with this sort of epoxy before so I am just trying to rationalize what to expect.

 

[Dr. Vette]

If a taped up front action bolt is used, you won't have to move a thing. Use the screw, which is smaller and induces stress once you tighten it, and I guarantee nothing. Vary at your own risk.

In addition, I find that putting a very thin layer of epoxy onto the action helps minimize the chance of visible air bubbles and voids once you're done.

You seem very determined to use the action screw and snug it down. I doubt I'm going to change your mind, and that's fine. I just present my current thoughts based on research and experience I've had. I'm still learning with every one I do.

 

[mrb1982]

If a taped up front action bolt is used, you won't have to move a thing. Use the screw, which is smaller and induces stress once you tighten it, and I guarantee nothing. Vary at your own risk.

In addition, I find that putting a very thin layer of epoxy onto the action helps minimize the chance of visible air bubbles and voids once you're done.

You seem very determined to use the action screw and snug it down. I doubt I'm going to change your mind, and that's fine. I just present my current thoughts based on research and experience I've had. I'm still learning with every one I do.

I re read your post and I think I have a better grasp of what you are talking about. Basically you are setting some "dumby screws" theoretically speaking, with that thick layer of tape, from the top, therefore preventing epoxy in the holes/screws, and gauranteeing alignment, I like that idea.

I guess my only concern is then when the process is done, and I reassemble the rifle, and I torque the scres to spec, is it gonna bring things tighter than originally bedded and cause pressures in places I don't want?

This is where I keep thinking about torqueing to spec while bedding. If I torque it to spec while bedding, remove for cleanup, then reinstall to spec for finished product, there will be consistency. I am not saying I am right, but can you explain to me why I am wrong so that I can do it properly? I got angood feel fornyournprocess now and like it, just gotta decide the best technique for snugging or not snugging.

 

[earlcurtis67]

I've been following this thread intently and just want to say thanks to all who have commented and gave of their time to help those of us in need. thanks E

 

[Dr. Vette]

I guess my only concern is then when the process is done, and I reassemble the rifle, and I torque the screws to spec, is it gonna bring things tighter than originally bedded and cause pressures in places I don't want?

Yes, it will fit more snugly. Isn't that the point? But, the epoxy won't compress enough to make things tighter than they were when bedded.

You cause pressure in places you don't want by tightening the screws when bedding and causing stress on the barrelled action. Go ahead and Google the term "stress free bedding" and do more investigation if you wish. There are plenty of articles by gunsmiths and enthusiasts with a lot more experience than me. You want the barrelled action to fit the same in the stock as it does at rest - and if you're tightening screws you're imposing some amount of stress on the action while the epoxy is drying.

Resist the urge.

 

[Garycrow]

This is where I keep thinking about torqueing to spec while bedding. If I torque it to spec while bedding, remove for cleanup, then reinstall to spec for finished product, there will be consistency. I am not saying I am right, but can you explain to me why I am wrong so that I can do it properly? I got angood feel fornyournprocess now and like it, just gotta decide the best technique for snugging or not snugging.

Torqueing the action screws during bedding is a very bad idea. The point of bedding is to allow the action to lay in the stock stress free. You're trying to make the stock fit the action not the action fit the stock. If you torque the action screws while the epoxy is unhardened then you're just bending the action until it tightens down against something hard, which is whatever solid piece of the stock that it happens to touch. You now have a slightly bent and stressed action that's going to go back to that same bent and stressed state when the epoxy is hardened and you've cleaned up and reinstalled it. In essence you will have accomplished nothing with your bedding. The goal isn't just to achieve tight bedding, it's more to allow the action to rest in the stock in a consistent place and stress free. Tight bedding and a stressed action = bad, Tight bedding and a stress free action = good.

The right way to do it is to use the bedding screws with no heads sold by midway or brownells, or do like I did and bought a couple of long hardware store bolts and cut the heads off them. I then wrapped them with electrical tape to give the needed clearance. When you put the action in the unhardened epoxy wrap it snugly with surgical tubing or if you're cheap like me wrap it with a bunch of wraps of electrical tape. The goal is to hold the action securely in place without putting any stress on it, surgical tubing or electrical tape won't generate enough force to induce stress in the action or stock but it will hold it securely in place while the epoxy hardens around the action. The epoxy will fill all the voids if you did it right (and even if it's kind of ugly it usually works just fine). Set it aside and let it harden for a day or two before popping it out of the stock. When you pop it out you'll have a negative imprint of your action and your action will go right back into place. You can then torque it down to spec and there won't be any stress points, the force will be applied evenly across the action to the stock which is laying in it's perfect bed.

Avoid the urge to put a headed screw in there and tighten it down when the epoxy is hardening, by doing that you're totally defeating the purpose of bedding it. DON'T DO IT!!!

 

[mrb1982]

I get what you guys are saying now and it makes sense. I have access to surgical tubing so thats not a problem. Pretty excited to get this going. The rest of my supplies should be here in a day or two so then after that I should be ready to rock. Thanks for everybody's help

 

[Hired Gun]

Garycrow explains it very well.

I would just add a little food for thought. A Remington action only takes 3 inch pounds or torque on the action screws to measurably bend it. That's why the headless screws. A wrap of tape, zip tie, or a light wrap of surgical tubing on the rear bridge and another at the fore end tip will not bend the action. Be sure to do a dry fit before you put in the epoxy to ensure no high spots anywhere in between. Let it fully cure before popping it out.

 

[etisll40]

Following, good stuff.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Garycrow and I are telling the same story just in different ways. I hope that it's now making sense. He uses electrical tape, I use blue masking tape. He uses tubing or tape to hold it in place, I use nothing as I've not seen one move one iota after being placed in the bedding. These are just personal differences that won't affect the end result.

The key is the stress free part of the bedding story.

 

[Pdvdh]

Avoid the urge to put a headed screw in there and tighten it down when the epoxy is hardening, by doing that you're totally defeating the purpose of bedding it. DON'T DO IT!!!

Good explanation...

 

[mrb1982]

Garycrow and I are telling the same story just in different ways. I hope that it's now making sense. He uses electrical tape, I use blue masking tape. He uses tubing or tape to hold it in place, I use nothing as I've not seen one move one iota after being placed in the bedding. These are just personal differences that won't affect the end result.

The key is the stress free part of the bedding story.

Yeah thats what I thougt. Now tat I have sat down and really thougt it out by how you were explaining it and it is simple and makes sense now. I have my headless bolts and am gonna start taping and fitting them this afternoon hopefully

 

[mrb1982]

got started with my prepwork today. Put the long screws in the action, taped them to proper diameter, got my wrap of tape on the barrel for alignment and assuring propper elevation of the action. Its turning out great. I am finding the hardest part isntaping the lug. lol i can get it on the front and sides prett good, but that bottom side is tough.

I notice some people prefer two layers of tape in the bottom, is there a reason? Is it a requirement or is there much difference between one or two?