Bedding Fit Question

[Phil3]

Hi,

I have a Bell & Carlson Tactical Medalist stock (aluminum bedding block) that really surprised me. With the action dropped in and rear tang against stock material, the recoil lug does not even touch the bedding block! There is about a 1/16" gap. I am not sure where recoil forces are being transferred, but it sure isn't through the lug. ??? Even the front action hole was forward of the bedding block hole enough to barely permit screw thread engagement. Is this normal? Should I expect to have to modify the stock just so the recoil lug contacts the bedding block? I am not sure if the stock is just made wrong, or if its really normal to have to correct such a large error.


Phil

 

[Dr. Vette]

Phil,

You probably have to tweak the stock so that the hole at least lines up properly, and then skim bed it with Devcon or your favorite bedding material. This will make up for the gap you're seeing and improve the fit and function immensely.

 

[J E Custom]

Hi,

I have a Bell & Carlson Tactical Medalist stock (aluminum bedding block) that really surprised me. With the action dropped in and rear tang against stock material, the recoil lug does not even touch the bedding block! There is about a 1/16" gap. I am not sure where recoil forces are being transferred, but it sure isn't through the lug. ??? Even the front action hole was forward of the bedding block hole enough to barely permit screw thread engagement. Is this normal? Should I expect to have to modify the stock just so the recoil lug contacts the bedding block? I am not sure if the stock is just made wrong, or if its really normal to have to correct such a large error.


Phil

This is not uncommon with any stock.

What I would suggest is, check the action screw spacing and see if both holes line up.

Next center the front screw by adding one or two layers of Heat shrink to a ''headless''
screw that is 2'' long and make sure you can get the barreled action in the stock easy.

If you can apply one layer of heat shrink to both screws, If you cant, use a smooth shank
screw on the tang for a guide to help line up the action during bedding.

After coating the bottom of the action and the heat shrink with wax or release agent ,Take
a dremel or sand paper to all of the surfaces of the stock to be bedded (Use the dremel to
reach down in recoil slot if the stock and clean it for bedding.

I like to use Steel Bed from Brownells because of working time and it doesent run easy.

I use spring clamps to hold the action down while bedding is curring, some use bungees
or surgical tubing to prevent stress from clamping forces.

Once it is bedded and starts to cure leaving the clamps on you can remove the screws
with the heat shrink carefully without disturbing the bedding and it will come out easy
after curing.

Once you have the action out and the bedding cleaned check the clearance on the action
screws using the screws used to align the action with the heat shrink removed.

If eather screw looks like it may touch the pillar, drill the hole in the pillar out a little larger
for clearance.

At no time should the action screws touch the pillars, only the action and the floor metal
should touch each end of the pillar/block.

Just because a stock comes with a bedding block does not mean it doesn't need bedding
properly.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Phil3]

Yes, this is quite helpful. Your clearly laid out a process which makes sense and not too intimidating! However, I run into trouble with hole alignment and use of the heat tape.

There is substantial misalignment between the front action threaded hole and the 5/16" (.3125") hole in the bedding block. The front action threaded hole was so far forward of the 5/16" (.3125") bedding block hole, it was not possible to even start the screw (.230" OD smooth part). It was apparent that the rear tang area of the stock was bearing against the tang, effectively acting as the recoil lug. I removed some sticky material found in this area along with some burrs, that permitted the stock to move ever so slightly rearward. This was just enough to get the front action screw started, but the side of the screw is very nearly bearing against the forward wall of the bedding block 5/16" hole. With heat shrink fitted, it will not be possible to even start the screw into the action. Or fit the action with headless screws and heat tape into the stock. The action and stock hole are just too misaligned. The rear screw hole is fine.

It appears the cause of the action being too far forward is that the rear stock tang area is acting as the recoil lug. There is a 1/16" gap between the recoil lug and the bedding block. The action needs to move rearward at least that much, which will likely fix the front misalignment. However, it will cause the rear holes to be misaligned. I do not know if the misalignment would be enough to prevent side loads on the screw from the bedding block, but I am not at all convinced it is possible to simultaneously fit front and rear screws with heat shrink. It is like the bedding block holes are just spaced too closely.

I can bore out the front hole to gain clearance or use my milling machine (if I somehow find a way to hold the stock and not crush it) to elongate the bedding block screw hole. But I am very disturbed that Bell and Carlson would release a stock needing this level of modifications which is advertised as "screw it in and shoot". And then the fact that the recoil lug is not even TOUCHING the stock, with the rear tang absorbing all recoil? That seems pretty astonishing to me, but maybe I am expecting too much. ???

Thanks for your tips. I am keeping this as I like the idea of the heat tape and maintaining clearance around the screws.

Phil

 

[J E Custom]

Phil3

Drilling the holes larger is the solution as long as you dont go to large.

Drill them both out and see if the screws will go in. then use the one that does the best job
of centering the recoil lug. I like/want bedding on both sides of the recoil lug so once you get
the action where you want it the bedding will make the fit.

It does not matter if the pillars are perfict as long as the action screws don't bare on them.
They are there to prevent compression of the stock.

I in-large the holes just enough to allow the heat shrink because when the bedding has cured
the screws are centered and not touching once the heat shrink has been removed.

The only issue that may cause you problems is if the hole spacing is off from the floor metal.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Phil3]

Drilling the holes larger is the solution as long as you dont go to large.

I do not think I would need to. I need to check it more carefully to know for sure. Only the front hole needs to be moved or enlarged. The rear lines up fine with the action.

Drill them both out and see if the screws will go in. then use the one that does the best job
of centering the recoil lug. I like/want bedding on both sides of the recoil lug so once you get
the action where you want it the bedding will make the fit.

I am VERY new at this, but not sure what is meant with "centering" the recoil lug. On a Howa, the lug is part of the action and is a lip that hooks over a corresponding lip on the bedding block. You can see all this here. This is my rifle and stock.

Howa 223 pictures by PhilJr - Photobucket

I do understand you are looking to have bedding material between the lug and the bedding block. Plenty of room for that now, there is about 1/16" gap.

It does not matter if the pillars are perfict as long as the action screws don't bare on them.
They are there to prevent compression of the stock.

This stock does not have pillars, but has the aluminum bedding block.

I in-large the holes just enough to allow the heat shrink because when the bedding has cured
the screws are centered and not touching once the heat shrink has been removed.

The only issue that may cause you problems is if the hole spacing is off from the floor metal.

The front screw rubs against the front side of the hole in the floor plate metal. Not exactly sure why. On top of that, the barrel is just barely misses the left side of the barrel channel, with a big gap on the right side. I guess bedding with barrel centered fixes all that. Just did not expect so much fixing!

Phil



J E CUSTOM

 

[Dr. Vette]

Phil,

As you have a Howa (same as my Vanguards) you absolutely, positively need space behind the rear of the action so that it does not, as you noticed, act as a recoil lug. In fact, when I bed them I place 2-3 layers of tape on the rear portion of the action to be sure I have space there. The most important hole is the front hole, especially since it is in your recoil lug. If/when you bed this, also be sure that you do not place tape under the recoil lug, only on the front and sides.

I usually use blue masking tape instead of heat shrink, and get the most I can on a headless metric thread bolt as per JE's recommendation. This then centers the front bolt in the hole. I'll let the rear bolt take up the slack and be a bit off center front to back.

If you can't line the bolts up easily then please call Bell & Carlson and have them send you a different stock. If they made a mistake, let them fix it.

PM me your e-mail address and I can send you a couple of photos if you wish.

 

[Phil3]

Phil,

As you have a Howa (same as my Vanguards) you absolutely, positively need space behind the rear of the action so that it does not, as you noticed, act as a recoil lug. In fact, when I bed them I place 2-3 layers of tape on the rear portion of the action to be sure I have space there. The most important hole is the front hole, especially since it is in your recoil lug. If/when you bed this, also be sure that you do not place tape under the recoil lug, only on the front and sides.

To get the front action and stock holes reasonably well centered with one another, the stock is going to have to come back about 1/16", which will also put the recoil lug in contact with the bedding block (or close to it). That means grinding away 1/16" of stock material behind the tang and keeping its curvy shape intact. I am not that good with a Dremel! I am not sure yet how muich this work will misalign the rear hole.

I usually use blue masking tape instead of heat shrink, and get the most I can on a headless metric thread bolt as per JE's recommendation. This then centers the front bolt in the hole. I'll let the rear bolt take up the slack and be a bit off center front to back.

OK, makes sense.

If you can't line the bolts up easily then please call Bell & Carlson and have them send you a different stock. If they made a mistake, let them fix it.

I have done this and they gave me an RMA. Unbelievably, they said the turnaround is EIGHT WEEKS! And there is no assurance they will replace it if their inspection finds nothing amiss. This is why I am considering using the stock as is.

PM me your e-mail address and I can send you a couple of photos if you wish

Will send you my e-mail. I would like to see the pics.


Thank you.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

I did some more work with the stock (Bell & Carlson Tactical Medalist w/aluminum bedding block).

I used my lathe to machine of the head of two M6 cap screws. These screws have a smooth shank with outside diameter of .230". The Howa screws are .231. I applied 4 layers of blue tape to the screws so that I could force better centering of these screws into the .031 hole in the stock. See the photos here.

Howa 223 pictures by PhilJr - Photobucket

I screwed the screws into the action and the stock did fit reasonably well over the screws. I did not expect this given previous difficulties. The screws are off a bit off centered from the stock holes, but not bad. I removed the action and applied grease to the recoil lug, reinstalled the action over the test screws, slid the stock as far forward as it would go (to force contact with the recoil lug) and then removed it. Zero contact between recoil lug and stock. Not good.

It appears to me that the rear tang is hitting the stock. Give the amount of grease I applied to the recoil lug, it appears at least 1/16" of stock material must be removed behind the rear tang. I am not skilled enough to do this and retain the curved shape to match the rear tang. I am also concerned that the tang will begin to stick out above the sloped stock area as it moves rearward.

Given the reasonable centering of the holes, maybe it is just best to bed the thing, putting bedding material in that 1/16" gap.

I have to wonder how many of these stocks have been bolted together with no contact on the recoil lug and shot that way.

Anyone know who does good bedding jobs in the San Francisco bay area?

Thanks.

Phil

 

[Dr. Vette]

Phil,

If you bed the stock, the 1/16 space behind the recoil lug doesn't matter, as the bedding material will fill it. I'd say that most of the stocks that owners just bolt on to their actions don't fit that well and probably have a gap under or behind the recoil lug. They even come that way from the factory.

Whatever you do, get that grease out of there, as it will make any bedding more difficult as bedding and grease don't get along.

I sent you pictures of my stock. Note that I also had to remove material behind the rear of the action. Using a Dremel and a tiny attachment I undercut the "color coat" of the stock and removed some of the foam underlayment. Once I had enough removed I then used tape on the back of the action when I bedded it, and the bedding material formed a new "back wall" to that area of the stock. The tape left a gap, and the rear of the action doesn't form any recoil lug.