Barnes terminal performance question

[OG-danimal]

This question pertains to monometal bullets that are designed to peel their pedals, not shed them. Barnes, CX etc…

Assuming the same caliber and bullet line (LRX, TTSX, CX) will grain wait really even matter that much when it comes to terminal performance of the bullet?

For example: if you were to shoot an elk, with a 175gr 30 cal LRX going 2500fps on impact and then shot the same elk (hypothetical) with a 208gr 30 cal LRX going 2500fps on impact. Would there be a noticeable difference in wound channel or internal damage?? Obviously there is a big difference in kinetic energy, but does that affect the damage going through the animal?

Food for thought,
Cheers
OG

 

[SamuelBerryhill308]

Tagging in I've wondered that as well

 

[HSmithTX]

The heavier bullet should upset more and over a longer (deeper) period of time if everything else is exactly the same, more sectional density means slower decay in velocity as it upsets, in theory you should see a wider wound channel deeper through the animal. That said, is anything ever exactly the same?

 

[unclecroc]

I doubt you'd notice a ton of difference in permanent wound cavity. You may notice the lrx open to full diameter sooner in the animal and also penetrate further due to higher sectional density.

 

[tomcat818]

I would suspect a minimal difference in terminal performance considering a total impact energy difference of 458 lb\ft between the two and both bullets would expand to almost equal diameter @ 2,500 fps. These mono's are known for pass through exit wounds and lack of expansion at slower fps impacts. However, at the speed in your scenario they should fully expand and have very good penetration and potentially leave exit wounds resulting in fairly quick death on elk sized animals.

I've only seen one elk taken with the LRX bullets and that was with a 300WM suppressed on a mature cow @ ~300yds with the 208gr. The first shot broadside lung shot she just stood there follow up shot to same location she stood there for 10 seconds then walked 20 ft and keeled over. IIRC both were passed through with no bullet recovery.

I came across a study out of SC that goes into some detail about terminal performance and compares bullet type terminal performance although it focuses on much smaller game whitetail deer.

SCDNR - Wildlife Information

 

[choprzrul]

Interesting study indeed Tomcat.....thank you for sharing.

I'd be interested to see what the results looked like if 1/3 of the sample population were using Hammer bullets.....

 

[fordy]

Gday
OG Daniel great thread & here's my spin on it

First off if 2 different pills expand to the same diameter & only mushroom monos ( not shed the petals as they are completely different on how they kill & if one understands the pop those pills can produce if designed correctly you can go to a different application/ level but I'll leave that alone for how you have worded it in your original post or @least as I understand it)

So the heavier pill will give the better wounding capability in a simple format but as others stated you'll most likely not see it

So why is that the case & time to get a little anal here & remember this is hypothetical same impact same resistance

First off the heavier pill deforms & opens easier & it will give a longer wound channel across zones 2,3&4 also as this is where sectional density comes in
Simple physics

So now let's put these in the hypothetical elk or 2 of them sxs
The 2 different pill weights will give nearly identical wounds except in the transition zones as the heavier pill will open slightly quicker to full terminal form so the transition zone is shortened on the heavier vrs the longer transition zone of lighter pill but both will still have the same wound channel on the broadside in the crease shot @ the exit point of the far side of the chest cavity ( through the lungs )

Now move those angles & resistances & watch the heavier pill hold that permanent wound channel across zones 2,3&4 for longer & gives us a better wounding with the heavier pill

It's pretty well as simple as I can put it but now you can also enter flat base vrs boat tail part for how that preforms in a critter also but another time for that I think

But it's also why one should look @ various impact speeds @ that range /s of ea of those pills & why we should always do our own scenario with our own combos as often is the case the lighter the pill in this case around a potential 300 fps increase MV & time we do our own charts up on the actual impact velocities up on ea of those pills it's a longways out & often not crossed by the 2 different pills in one's own impact ranges & the lighter pill now wins the wound channel scenario

In that case it's why the lighter faster pill gives us a better wounding & killing efficiency as long as it can cover the triangles parameters & that's also another day for discussion I think along with the shedding & c& c world which often gets a lot of fun & games on peoples opinions / thoughts
So looking forward if you want to open that can of worms

Lastly @tomcat818 that is a great paper & when one delves into those things you'll see when watching killing efficiency curves on various velocity impact points & different resistances you see where some pills excel over others , others not so much
But numbers needed to do those for a clearer picture on accuracy of how one pill vrs another works better or not imo of course

Cheers

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

 

[OG-danimal]

Gday
OG Daniel great thread & here's my spin on it

First off if 2 different pills expand to the same diameter & only mushroom monos ( not shed the petals as they are completely different on how they kill & if one understands the pop those pills can produce if designed correctly you can go to a different application/ level but I'll leave that alone for how you have worded it in your original post or @least as I understand it)

So the heavier pill will give the better wounding capability in a simple format but as others stated you'll most likely not see it

So why is that the case & time to get a little anal here & remember this is hypothetical same impact same resistance

First off the heavier pill deforms & opens easier & it will give a longer wound channel across zones 2,3&4 also as this is where sectional density comes in
Simple physics

So now let's put these in the hypothetical elk or 2 of them sxs
The 2 different pill weights will give nearly identical wounds except in the transition zones as the heavier pill will open slightly quicker to full terminal form so the transition zone is shortened on the heavier vrs the longer transition zone of lighter pill but both will still have the same wound channel on the broadside in the crease shot @ the exit point of the far side of the chest cavity ( through the lungs )

Now move those angles & resistances & watch the heavier pill hold that permanent wound channel across zones 2,3&4 for longer & gives us a better wounding with the heavier pill

It's pretty well as simple as I can put it but now you can also enter flat base vrs boat tail part for how that preforms in a critter also but another time for that I think

But it's also why one should look @ various impact speeds @ that range /s of ea of those pills & why we should always do our own scenario with our own combos as often is the case the lighter the pill in this case around a potential 300 fps increase MV & time we do our own charts up on the actual impact velocities up on ea of those pills it's a longways out & often not crossed by the 2 different pills in one's own impact ranges & the lighter pill now wins the wound channel scenario

In that case it's why the lighter faster pill gives us a better wounding & killing efficiency as long as it can cover the triangles parameters & that's also another day for discussion I think along with the shedding & c& c world which often gets a lot of fun & games on peoples opinions / thoughts
So looking forward if you want to open that can of worms

Lastly @tomcat818 that is a great paper & when one delves into those things you'll see when watching killing efficiency curves on various velocity impact points & different resistances you see where some pills excel over others , others not so much
But numbers needed to do those for a clearer picture on accuracy of how one pill vrs another works better or not imo of course

Cheers

Thanks Fordy! Yeah it seems like there is a lot more to be explored here. I definitely like hammer style and want to explore that more. But these are the random thoughts that pop into my head at 2am when I should be sleeping…

 

[Koda_]

In my unscientific mind in the same caliber I go with the higher sectional density if I want penetration.
I started my mono journey with Barnes TTSX and it left a devastating wound channel. Im switching to Hammers because I like the idea of the shotgun effect of the petals then the "wadcutter" flat base nose thats left over... I still go with the higher sectional density (twist rate and SG allowed) so the base will continue to penetrate.

 

[fordy]

Thanks Fordy! Yeah it seems like there is a lot more to be explored here. I definitely like hammer style and want to explore that more. But these are the random thoughts that pop into my head at 2am when I should be sleeping…

Gday OG
Definitely more to explore so keep you
Random thoughts @2am coming

Cheers