Barnes Bullet Stabilization- Specifically .458 Lott 500 grain

[JimmyJack54]

I've read where some have had issues with the 458 Lott with 1-14 twist stabilizing the long for weight Barnes 500 grain TSX bullet. I'm looking for an expanding bullet for an upcoming buffalo hunt later this year. I want to stick with a 500 grain, not lighter, bullet in factory loaded ammunition. I've had good success with Barnes bullets in smaller calibers but I'm wondering if I should stick with a bonded lead core (Swift A Frame, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, etc.), therefore, shorter bullet that may not have stabilization issues. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Has anyone shot this combo successfully without issues?

Tagging backyardsniper as I saw he had this exact issue.

 

[fordy]

Gday jimmyjack54
I've not shot the Lott in a lot of years lol & never with that combo you are searching information on so I'll come from a general position

Overall a lot of brands suffer with understabilsed pills ( marginal stability ) & this is even more important once you enter the DG world ( imo one of utmost importance to avoid )
often dropping weight increases your killing effectiveness not decreasing ( a line exsists )
Now I'd notice your firm on the 500 gr weight & that's cool another pill brand is woodleigh & they produce world class DG bullets & have 2 designs in 500 gr 458 I think ? a pp & RN ( solid aside ) but will be hard to find sorry until production comes back to normal after their fire but just putting those out incase you can find any & a Aussie product lol no doubt others exsist
Whatever pill the first shot is then Followed with a good solid , never went a stray either ( way better solids today also from when I used them )

But I can't go bye without you just thinking about this & maybe you'll do some research on the following & sprooks your interest

step outside of what was once the norm to a far more effective killing combos than were once used & still are by a lot but when you compare the impact to tip a faster lighter pill ( mono ) reigns supreme


I'll leave the in-depth analysis of why for another day

Back to your other nominated pills a higher stability is one I'd recommend but a lead mushroom pill will give better results if you have a marginally stabilised mono of same weight with exception of some shedding monos but they also give better results dropping weight a bit also but does anyone factory load them & in 500 gr


The other potential issue you will face is the issue of the 500 gr Barnes of not opening correctly/ adequately & this is a distinct possibility @ the velocities a Lott can push a 500 gr pill @ then add the distance of your buff to the equation yep your impact velocity is potentially to low to get that adequate opening expansion on occasions & note your buff hunt is later on in the year so on average shots will be generally longer than the early season hunts

Then we enter into your journey once there & about to squeeze off & that's shot angle
This you'll also have to be careful on as buff ribs basically overlap & why a frontal shot is often discouraged or frowned upon from some ph with any type of pill yet it's a extremely potent shot when it is executed correctly
This is where a shedding mono also has more irons in the fire than either mushroom pills but I don't think any in 500 gr but I'm not very familiar with 458 cal these days more 375&50 cal so a bit of research or help from others in the know might help
If anyone does factory loading in these

My mate lost 1 bull last year & had 2 wounded that took days of tracking & eventually found with bullet path confirmed on those 2
Those 2 were Barnes 416 & gave the stock standard slide along the ribs on slightly off frontal shots
Even recently last month in 375 & 300 gr Barnes on one of the buff we took & angles presented the go dead straight then turn showed it's traits playing out again these were non frontal shots but marginal stability showed up as a issue along with a slightly compromised angle off the meplat along the well opened petals ( adequate velocity impact) & a bad turn was observed with one pill in particular & if that was the only pill that was put into that buff he would have died a real slow death if we didn't put other pills in him so just be aware of the risks on a marginal stable pill or one that dosent open enough ( opening to fast ican also be a issue but generally not with Barnes in the bigbores ) yet on most broadside shots you won't see as many issues ( they are still there but usually the damage done is fatal before it goes south but then you have a few other scenarios that can also play out this is not to say Barnes are no good as they preform well most of the time just as the majority of pills today do but it's also good to know the limitations imo then you can have more trumps in your hand if the scenario comes up

If a 500 gr pill is it in your 14 twist I'd go a lead mushroom pill & opposite of my choice in 375 as for that was a Barnes not Aframe as it's getting the best for what we have available for the task we are entering

Hope that helps somewhat & I don't no who loads factory for the Lott so accept my apology if those pills I mentioned arnt available
Jm2cw
Wishing you the best

Cheers

 

[JimmyJack54]

Thank you fordy for your comments and insight.

As previously mentioned, I've had good experiences in the past with Barnes. Two items of concern for me with 500 grain Barnes TSX in 458 Lott: 1) longer bullet for weight=decreased case capacity (would I be falling prey to same issues of 458 WM?); 2) stabilization issues I've read about on this site, previously mentioned, and others?

Barnes and Federal, most readily available commercial ammunition for me, is loaded with the 500 grain bullet. I had thought a 450 grain RSX might be a better option for me. After your comments I did some additional research and found some specialty loaded ammunition in 450 grain TSX that I may give a try. Here is what they have to say:

I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. and while the Lott version improves this situation some, 500 gr. bullets recoil much more and accomplish little penetration benefit over 450 gr. bullets, if designed correctly and the TSX bullet is of excellent design. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., (we will make one 500 gr. TSX load for the Lott) which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. for the .458 were conceived as more of a marketing practice (WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE) to the "heavier is better" crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply AS A GENERAL RULE if all else is equal.

Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures WELL below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh.

If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. TSXoption. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (and I'll be doing that in 2022) I'll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.

We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear in my 20's, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets @ 2,500 fps and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life.

SAAMI gives a maximum cartridge OAL (over-all-length) of 3.600 inches for the 458 Lott cartridge. Because of where Barnes places the crimp groove on this bullet, we have an OAL of 3.617 inches (+/-.005) or .017 inch over SAAMI. These loads fit the magazine boxes of both my test rifles with the CZ having over a half-inch extra room. The Montana Rifle Company magazine box accepts the cartridge and functions flawlessly in feeding/cycling, but there is no room to spare. I doubt any magazine boxes are going to be so tight that .017 inch will matter, but I wanted to publish these specs…..

 

[fordy]

Gday
Now where talking & I'll flip on my recommendation of the lead not saying not good either but the Barnes is my choice now with those subtle changes to the big picture

Keep a eye out for the shedding monos in time to come as they catch on in the factory loaded offerings some guys have got great results with pills on buff in the 400 gr range ( I've not put them into buff so no personal information) but I don't believe factory ammo anyway so I'd stay @ the 450 Barnes & go smack a buff

I look forward to hearing how you get on if you'll share & what area are you heading too if you don't mind & with who
Cheers

 

[JimmyJack54]

Thank you for your feedback and recommendation.

The shedding monos are interesting. I've read some about them and I hope to hear more feedback from those using them afield.

Cape Buffalo. I'm headed to the Limpopo area of South Africa.

 

[MagnumManiac]

The only bullet I would recommend out of a 458 Lott is the Woodleigh 500g RNSP…that, and 500g DGX, are the only bullets I ran in my 458 Lott on Water buff here in Australia and Cape buff in Africa. The Woodleigh out performs most from what I have seen, even in my 374 Bee and 416 Rigby. My Nitro's, 500 and 600, were a mixed bag of full solids, never used soft points in them on game.

Cheers.

 

[fordy]

Gday magnum maniac

Could you please explain a little more if you don't mind on the following in your post

"out preforms "

Cheers from the apple isle

 

[MagnumManiac]

out preforms "

Not a word I used.

Cheers.

 

[fordy]

Not a word I used.

Cheers.

Gday
That's a interesting reply but thankyou for replying
cheers

 

[MagnumManiac]

Gday
That's a interesting reply but thankyou for replying
cheers

Did you mean to say 'out PERFORMS'?
If that's the case, then yes, I have found Woodleigh bullets penetrate further, hold a better mushroom and do not do weird **** like turning in the animal, they go straight.
The 600g I used in my 505 Gibbs was absolutely tough, perfect mushrooms with the 3 buff I shot, each needing only one shot. Have used them in 300, 338, 375, 416, 470 and 505. Excellent bullets, and the PP acts very differently to the RN.

Cheers.

 

[Sixgun17]

I only have a sample size of one buffalo to work from, but this was the 450gr TSX from my Lott that did the job, starting out around 2400 fps. Dug it out of the hide on the far side of a broadside shoulder shot from about 80 yards, and it busted up everything it encountered along the way.

I too wanted to run the 500gr version, but it just took up too much case capacity.

The same load on opportunistic kudu and sable and achieved similar satisfactory results (for me, not so much for them).

 

[JimmyJack54]

Thanks Sixgun17.

That 450 grain TSX seems to have given you adequate performance on your buff. Did you load these yourself?

Did the shots on kudu and sable pass through? Just curious.

I've used 150 grain TSX IN .270 Win on various plaines game and the only recoverable bullet was on a zebra.

 

[Sixgun17]

Yes, I loaded them myself (H335 in Hornady brass). Recovering the bullets from the kudu and sable will probably require a Zimbabwe mining permit.

 

[fordy]

Did you mean to say 'out PERFORMS'?
If that's the case, then yes, I have found Woodleigh bullets penetrate further, hold a better mushroom and do not do weird **** like turning in the animal, they go straight.
The 600g I used in my 505 Gibbs was absolutely tough, perfect mushrooms with the 3 buff I shot, each needing only one shot. Have used them in 300, 338, 375, 416, 470 and 505. Excellent bullets, and the PP acts very differently to the RN.

Cheers.

Gday Magnummaniac
Yea & thankyou
Sorry if I'm hard to follow as I'm not very good @ writing or getting my questions across in a easy format but that's me & still try
Moving on

That's what I was thinking/ hoping you'd elaborate on / was going to come out on how the woodleigh preform in big critters

Be great once Geoff & Shirley get these bullets in full swing again as another great option for one to use

Sorry for derail jimmjack you will be fine & look forward to your journey

Cheers