Ballistic calculators are OK, but...

[JTB]

Find an accurate load on a reasonably wide node and keep fine tuning the velocity and BC values on the calculator until it precisely predicts the actual bullet path. I usually sight in at 300 and adjust the calculator until it hits at 500, 750, 1200 and 2000. The strength of the ballistic calculators for me is being able to adjust for barometric pressure over a wide range of elevations and temperatures in the field for proper elevation adjustment. Still seems like magic but has never failed me. All from my phone. Go figure.
Seems the CDS system would have limited usefulness for those hunting in widely varied conditions at distance over 600 yards or so. If you need to hit an elk out to 500 yards it would probably be a nice tool for someone with limited ballistics experience, provided it is set up right.

 

[BallisticsGuy]

Ballistics calculators are awesome. They are always right... so long as you put the data in correctly. I publish my own ballistics app but instead of making users input their data I do it for them as a service including tuning things like Ballistic Coefficient:Velocity curve, Temperature Induced Muzzle Velocity Variation, Turret Click Values, etc...

Part of the need for that level of expertise is that G1 BC's are good in specific regimes of flight but anything closer or farther will get progressively less accurate as the distance grows. People then say "G7 blah blah" without understanding that G7 only applies to G7 compliant projectiles and that truing still is used in G7. So you have to tune BC or MV at some point. Add troubleshooting skills for all the other factors and it can get really easy to make mistakes.

I know precisely what I'm doing with the inputs only because I learned that junk so I could code ballistics software and had to learn how to diagnose what was causing departures from calculated to actual to validate the functionality of the software. No other ballistic calculator maker does that for a reason, it's tremendously skilled-labor intensive. Makers of other apps all seemingly expect you to be part meteorologist, ballistician, mathematician and sniper. Mine was created with the idea that all you'd need to be is a guy with a rifle that can read numbers and ask for help.

It occurs to me now that designing something to be optimized for a "guy that can ask for help" is possibly like building an oxymoron machine but I did it anyway.

 

[Pacecount]

Frankly none of this matters so much at 200 or even 400 yards when you have an 18" kill zone on elk; however, if you want to reach out.... I hear people often complain about their BDC — elevation/card/reticle.

For me, first, I determine my velocity at cold and hot temps... before doing this I leave my ammo outside for hours or overnight to simulate hunting conditions. Then I build data cards at specific elevations and temps and do my best to verify.

 

[jasent]

The only time I've ever had trouble with a ballistic cal. Was actually a scope issue if you can call it that. My "click" value was .278 instead of .25 moa. Adjust that in my calculator and drops are with in one click out to transonic. Garbage in garbage out

 

[WildRose]

The only time I've ever had trouble with a ballistic cal. Was actually a scope issue if you can call it that. My "click" value was .278 instead of .25 moa. Adjust that in my calculator and drops are with in one click out to transonic. Garbage in garbage out

A great reason to shoot the box test as soon as you've developed a good load.

 

[dfanonymous]

I have done a considerable amount of long range shooting both in the Marines and as a civilian and have found that nothing beats practice and record keeping when it comes ballistics and hitting the target when it matters most. Recently, I was shooting with a friend who is thoroughly convinced the his CDS dial that he ordered from Leupold should be dead on at every range out 600 yards. After all, he used his ballistic calculator and sent Leupold the data (disclaimer, my friends an engineer). Much to his disappointment, the CDS dial was off as much as three MOA at various ranges. After several attempts to get him to make a dope change on the elevation turret, I finally gave up trying to convince him that his ballistic calculator was slightly off or he input the wrong data.

This isn't the first time I have run into this problem. I have shot in the field and in competition with people who have failed to confirm their zero's at various ranges and insist on blaming their optics or the company that made the turret. If your turret is slightly off its OK, just record it and keep required dope changes handy. If you have experience shooting at long range and have moved past this issue then disregard this post. However, if you are just getting started, or thinking about getting into long range shooting and hunting then shoot, record, shoot, record... you will save yourself a lot of heartache. We'll talk about wind some other time...

all im getting out of this is don't shoot leupold for serious long range shooting. which is well known fact anyways. Or deal with it and know your real click values and put it into your solution. Or spend a year collecting drop data in all density altitudes head and tail winds out to as far as you shoot and just reference your 90 page dope book when you are going for the first shot impact.

 

[WildRose]

all im getting out of this is don't shoot leupold for serious long range shooting. which is well known fact anyways. Or deal with it and know your real click values and put it into your solution. Or spend a year collecting drop data in all density altitudes head and tail winds out to as far as you shoot and just reference your 90 page dope book when you are going for the first shot impact.

Leupold has served me well for many decades.

 

[yobuck]

That's why we gave up the Unertl and went with staight mil come ups.

Were the Unertle mounts set up for 1/4 min clicks?
The scope isn't the problem, the problem is the problem.

 

[Greyfox]

I have personally had exceptional success using ballistic calculators. Over the years I have used about a half a dozen of the popular programs that are available, including those incorporated in the Gunwerks G7 and Sig 2400. With identical inputs they will produce outputs that are the same or within one click out to the ranges I hunt/shoot, generally to 1200 yards. When a problem exists, it lies elsewhere. Garbage in......garbage out. IMO, the ballistic calculator may very well be the most consistent variable in the shooting equation. Where can the garbage come from?
-A rifle/load/shooter that is not precise/accurate. Scope aside(for a moment). Thorough understanding of cold bore POI.
-A defective scope. Performing a box test/tall test is not enough! Parralax/focus, and the magnification changes have to be checked for POI shifts as well. I have seen issues with the latter, even with some of the highly regarded brands.
-BC/velocity has to be verified by shooting ....knowing the atmospheric conditions "precisely", particularly as ranges exceed 500 yards. Compared to a decade ago, newer and more concise chronograph designs like the Magnetospeed and LabRadar can deliver accurate velocities, verifying that published BC's are only an estimate. Sometime they are right on, but usually they need to be fine tuned.
-I find that the use of yardage turrets or calibrated reticles can work quite well out to 500-600 yards. For precise work, particularly beyond this range, adjustments are required to compensate for changes in environmental conditions.
-Accurate ranging...verify the unit and learn how to use it.

Of course, all this is my opinion. Apologies to the seasoned shooters for stating the obvious. Over the past few years of LR hunting/PRS competition, the number of newer LR shooters I have encountered experiencing issues with their dopes has been quite high. The ballistic calculator is quite often, the first to take the blame.....wrongfully!

 

[73driver]

Density altitude Density altitude Density altitude A CDS dial is only accurate for a certain set of conditions inputed when made. At ranges out to 400 way less of an issue. When you go to 600 and beyond the error compounds. When shooting PRS matches here in PHX I end the match using density altitude in my ballistic app 1000/1500 higher than at the beginning of the match. My Leupold scope tracks nicely no problem dialing up stages from 200 yards out to 1000 yards. One stage required 1000 yard shot spin down for a 670 yard target then finish by dialing 465 yards. Scope tracks just fine.

 

[Pro2A]

I have done a considerable amount of long range shooting both in the Marines and as a civilian and have found that nothing beats practice and record keeping when it comes ballistics and hitting the target when it matters most. Recently, I was shooting with a friend who is thoroughly convinced the his CDS dial that he ordered from Leupold should be dead on at every range out 600 yards. After all, he used his ballistic calculator and sent Leupold the data (disclaimer, my friends an engineer). Much to his disappointment, the CDS dial was off as much as three MOA at various ranges. After several attempts to get him to make a dope change on the elevation turret, I finally gave up trying to convince him that his ballistic calculator was slightly off or he input the wrong data.

This isn't the first time I have run into this problem. I have shot in the field and in competition with people who have failed to confirm their zero's at various ranges and insist on blaming their optics or the company that made the turret. If your turret is slightly off its OK, just record it and keep required dope changes handy. If you have experience shooting at long range and have moved past this issue then disregard this post. However, if you are just getting started, or thinking about getting into long range shooting and hunting then shoot, record, shoot, record... you will save yourself a lot of heartache. We'll talk about wind some other time...

Introduce your engineer friend to the real world of ballistics. With his technical orientation he will be immediately addicted. He just doesn't know what he doesn't know yet. Suggest he explore Applied Ballistics Youtube channel. He would go bonkers in attending Applied Ballistics Seminar....you get all their ballistic books and ballistic solver included. Bullet Drop Dials are for those individuals that do not understand ballistics and long range shooting. They start out only as accurate as the DOPE provided to the dial manufacturer, but deteriorate from there. AB WEZ Analysis (Weapon Employment Zone) allows one to explore the minor uncertainties impact on hit probability. Changing Station Pressure (don't confuse with barometric pressure), Temp, muzzle velocity (changes with temp), direction of fire (Coriolis Effect), spin drift, bullet jump, inclination of fire, etc......all make for differing ballistics in every situation requiring updated ballistic firing solution. These are NEVER taken into consideration after the custom dial is made.....you are stuck with that one combination of variables.

 

[Pro2A]

I have done a considerable amount of long range shooting both in the Marines and as a civilian and have found that nothing beats practice and record keeping when it comes ballistics and hitting the target when it matters most. Recently, I was shooting with a friend who is thoroughly convinced the his CDS dial that he ordered from Leupold should be dead on at every range out 600 yards. After all, he used his ballistic calculator and sent Leupold the data (disclaimer, my friends an engineer). Much to his disappointment, the CDS dial was off as much as three MOA at various ranges. After several attempts to get him to make a dope change on the elevation turret, I finally gave up trying to convince him that his ballistic calculator was slightly off or he input the wrong data.

This isn't the first time I have run into this problem. I have shot in the field and in competition with people who have failed to confirm their zero's at various ranges and insist on blaming their optics or the company that made the turret. If your turret is slightly off its OK, just record it and keep required dope changes handy. If you have experience shooting at long range and have moved past this issue then disregard this post. However, if you are just getting started, or thinking about getting into long range shooting and hunting then shoot, record, shoot, record... you will save yourself a lot of heartache. We'll talk about wind some other time...

Another comment, beware of rifle CANTING......leaning the rifle left or right instead of DEAD ON VERTICAL....will make big changes in point of impact at longer ranges. An individual can only perceive about +/- 3degrees cant. Optical illusions caused by a visual reference thought to be vertical that is actually inclined cause large canting errors. Install an anti-cant level....bubble is OK; ceramic ball better (ie. Accuracy 1st design), electronic level best (ie. Send It). Also, zero your rifle at 100yds instead of 200-300yds. A 100 yd zero will be minimally impacted with altitude changes.

 

[Pro2A]

As the saying goes "believe the bullet". That's the bottom line. All the ballistic computer calculations are nice to get us close but there are so many things involved that it's likely some error in there.

Even the Ballistic Coefficient is an approximation.

You are right...You can't argue with the bullet. Believe the bullet. Bullets are like women. They do what they do. The only difference is that you can determine why the bullet did what it did. Not so much with women!!! No calculators to help there.

 

[Danehunter]

I agree that practice and good record keeping are very important for a successful hunt.
But... BallisticsGuy is keerect, good ballistics calculators are amazingly accurate, especially the Kestrel/AB (Applied Ballistics) 5700 Elite. You absolutely cannot accurately "guestimate" all the factors that affect your bullet's flight. you can come "kinda close" but you ain't playing horseshoes and wounding an animal isn't ethical.

This Kestrel/AB 5700 Elite calculator, along with a good laser rangefinder will give you EVERYTHING you need to properly calculate your point of aim.

SOME OF THE KESTREL 5700's sensors:
1. temperature
2. barometric pressure
3. altitude
4. internal compass
5. coriolis effect calculator (for extremely long shots)
6. humidity
7. FFP wind speed

Input your averaged range and if you loaded the correct rifle/cartridge ballistics you will get a very exact Point Of Impact.

The next best choice is the Leica B 3000 laser rangefinder binoculars loaded with your rifle's exact ballistics on its Micro SD card. You still need wind speed that can be had from your cell phone with a wind speed impeller and the related app.

This is because the Leica also has many sensors that give you most of the environmental factors affecting your ballistics.

Eric B.