Badlands Precision Bullets thread - From BC to terminal ballistics

[ObiWanKannoli]

These beauties are ready for next Saturday, hopefully I can find a home for one or two of them.

 

[nralifer]

Gday nrailer

Good to finally get to this & way more appropriate in this thread but imo of course

So let's step back a little first on our discussions some time back ( most likely over a year ) & I asked you to expand explain on how your gen 2 pills are doing anything different than your gen 1 as yes I've tested your gen 1 pills which when I did that was in a semi hunt /cull situation/s & I'll leave those result's alone but my judgment is based on those results & your lack of delving deeper on my or other peoples questions & ultimately just go quite but that's you

So moving forward once again & see if we can get anywhere this time

Yes You previously failed to explain how & why , now I'll give you the advancement in being able to get your gen 2 to open 200 below the gen 1 but that In no way has convinced me to use these in a hunting situation especially when we have also had interactions on different results on these gen 2 pills & some of your comments on that plus designs of the tip & construction of your pills yes I've tried to give you the opportunity to explain or even better back your statements up with factual evidence or @ a minimum @least say where it did impact ( That YouTube you quote a bit is a classic ) & yet you just go quiet which to me is not confidence building in the least so moving onto my hunts

my hunts are paid for these days & very limited due to the cost of those as I'm not a rich person & to be up front on that I earn about 45k a year & that's Aussie dollars so do that on exchange rates for Africa & take my cost of living away yes I'm not left with a lot ea year so I would not take your pills on a hunting trip , I'm just being straight up front which I hope you understand that but gladly used if they showed in my tests they can handle what shots I will take in the field & I also try on my hunting trips to place the shot as well as I can but never any guarantee especially with me so hope that clears that up

Now here's the next stage I will give you the opportunity once again to address my questions on how your gen 2 is superior to the gen 1 & please don't belittle yourself & say they open 200 fps lower as I'd not even get close to those low levels in a hunting situation anyway regardless of pill or caliber I have & ranges I shoot @ these days

A subtle hint , it's more like let's delve deeper on wound channel width, length where it starts to taper where it opens in the transition zone across various resistances & velocity impacts then once you address those we are getting closer to what is needed

So next part "photographic evidence"
I not only do this I will most likely understand why a pill has done what it has better than you ( not the correct terminology as I'm dumb on that front) & leads me to the next part

I push you to try & get you to make a better pill as the mushroom monos are one that can gain more no doubt on that , I also am watching a few of those other mushroom mono companies & testing some as I write . if yours are part of that mix I doubt you'll ever know but a fair few people already know what I am in the process of completing & believe me I'm not after any notoriety just want better pills & try & show where the best pills for their needs are when I'm asked or @ a minimum angles resistances to avoid

I look forward to you explaining how your pills have improved from gen 1 & we can also go back over to that construction thread & discuss the tips in more detail then delve deeper into the other parameters which give even more insight into what little things gets us the results we get

No hard feelings either way just laying my cards on the table be nice if you do the same
Cheers

Actually the cost of the bullets is only a minor cost of the whole hunt, but yet the success of the whole trip depends on the performance of the bullet. I know this from primary experience with a copper bullet whose expansion was unreliable and from lead core bullets whose expansion was erratic and penetration poor to marginal. When I had the chance, I set out to make very dependably expanding, and highly penetrating bullets. I know they are not cheap, but as far as lathe turned bullets they are much less expensive than our competitors and deliver greater BC, reliability of expansion and equal to greater penetration at all impact velocities. I don't want to get too specific about the details that improve the expansion performance of the BD2 bullets relative to that of the BD line other than to say that it has to do with improved design of the hollow point design and improvements in the bullet profile to reduce drag thus ensuring higher impact velocities due to slower energy loss to air friction. Let them figure it out if they can.

 

[nralifer]

These beauties are ready for next Saturday, hopefully I can find a home for one or two of them.

View attachment 509977

If you do your part, one is all you will need. They look great!

 

[ObiWanKannoli]

If you do your part, one is all you will need. They look great!

The way I eat I think I may need at least two

 

[fordy]

Gday nrailer

Actually the cost of the bullets is only a minor cost of the whole hunt, but yet the success of the whole trip depends on the performance of the bullet. I know this from primary experience with a copper bullet whose expansion was unreliable and from lead core bullets whose expansion was erratic and penetration poor to marginal. When I had the chance, I set out to make very dependably expanding, and highly penetrating bullets. I know they are not cheap, but as far as lathe turned bullets they are much less expensive than our competitors and deliver greater BC, reliability of expansion and equal to greater penetration at all impact velocities. I don't want to get too specific about the details that improve the expansion performance of the BD2 bullets relative to that of the BD line other than to say that it has to do with improved design of the hollow point design and improvements in the bullet profile to reduce drag thus ensuring higher impact velocities due to slower energy loss to air friction. Let them figure it out if they can.

Thanks for the reply yes cost is one of a bullet that has never ever concerned me as even if you save $2a pill it's useless if you do happen to get a really bad outcome or not the animal you want from passing a critter due to the shot being offered & this can include a broadside in timber but No behind the crease shot offers only a small window & the knuckle joint is it
Yes I want a pill I can depend on no matter what is offered or within reason
but I'm partially @ a loss on your reply & probably how i worded


So I'll try this
I'm not after any of your trade secrets on what you've actually done/achieved to get your pills to where they are today as I learnt a long time ago cutting pills up tells us basically Jack $-it , it's what those alloys do @ certain impacts under various resistances that demonstrates what they do
One to think otherwise would be foolish just take the humble 22lr & the different lead compositions & results



I'm asking on the specifics of compared to your gen one what are the differences in the gen 2 in the following
Differences in the transition zone of a pill impacting @2000,2500&3000impacts then replicate those when they are @ the higher resistance of heavy shoulder vrs in the crease between the ribs
Now just broadside would be fine for starters but I'll take angles if you want to include those & different resistances

Then how long does the permanent wound channel last before it tapers off ( stages) & the speed of the taper till it's basically to Caliber & how long does that last across those velocities once again

Now also what is the width of those stages in the permanent wound channel parts
Here is henryt picture
that hopefully explains the stages or @ minimum where we see the wound channels taper also in henryt pics he demonstrated it in 3zones
Transition zone is #1 but some also call it a neck I think ?

I think that's all I will ask you for now as I've still got a few to go but we need those basics to be clear first

Cheers

 

[nralifer]

Gday nrailer

Thanks for the reply yes cost is one of a bullet that has never ever concerned me as even if you save $2a pill it's useless if you do happen to get a really bad outcome or not the animal you want from passing a critter due to the shot being offered & this can include a broadside in timber but No behind the crease shot offers only a small window & the knuckle joint is it
Yes I want a pill I can depend on no matter what is offered or within reason
but I'm partially @ a loss on your reply & probably how i worded


So I'll try this
I'm not after any of your trade secrets on what you've actually done/achieved to get your pills to where they are today as I learnt a long time ago cutting pills up tells us basically Jack $-it , it's what those alloys do @ certain impacts under various resistances that demonstrates what they do
One to think otherwise would be foolish just take the humble 22lr & the different lead compositions & results



I'm asking on the specifics of compared to your gen one what are the differences in the gen 2 in the following
Differences in the transition zone of a pill impacting @2000,2500&3000impacts then replicate those when they are @ the higher resistance of heavy shoulder vrs in the crease between the ribs
Now just broadside would be fine for starters but I'll take angles if you want to include those & different resistances

Then how long does the permanent wound channel last before it tapers off ( stages) & the speed of the taper till it's basically to Caliber & how long does that last across those velocities once again

Now also what is the width of those stages in the permanent wound channel parts
Here is henryt picture View attachment 510158
that hopefully explains the stages or @ minimum where we see the wound channels taper also in henryt pics he demonstrated it in 3zones
Transition zone is #1 but some also call it a neck I think ?

I think that's all I will ask you for now as I've still got a few to go but we need those basics to be clear first

Cheers

One thing you have to remember about gel. Looking at static pictures of the gel does not show you the true magnitude of the temporary wound channel. In the gel above the narrower portions of the wound channel have also expanded significantly during the dynamic phase of the temporary wound channel. Also penetration under virtually any angle of impact is greater for our copper bullets than lead cores, making the copper bullet superior in taking quartering shots. In fact my hunting experience indicates that some quartering is actually better that right angle shots because of the superior penetration. At impact velocities of 2100 fps and above the first and second generation bullets are pretty equivalent. The higher BC of the BD2 assures higher impact velocities at longer ranges. The configuration of the hollow in the BD2 is such that the petals peel back easier and the base of each petal is wider to promote not only lower impact velocities but also at longer ranges. The best shots are quartering entering the base of the lungs on one side, going through both lungs at an angle and exiting at the base of the neck on the opposite side. Virtually every organ in the chest is hit. You need a bullet that can penetrate over 30" and retain 90+% of their original weight. Lead core bullets seldom fulfill the bill especially these days where most hunters want to push their bullets as fast as possible. Our bullets will work even with longitudinal shots, front or back.

 

[fordy]

Gday nrailer
Thanks again for the response below

One thing you have to remember about gel. Looking at static pictures of the gel does not show you the true magnitude of the temporary wound channel. In the gel above the narrower portions of the wound channel have also expanded significantly during the dynamic phase of the temporary wound channel. Also penetration under virtually any angle of impact is greater for our copper bullets than lead cores, making the copper bullet superior in taking quartering shots. In fact my hunting experience indicates that some quartering is actually better that right angle shots because of the superior penetration. At impact velocities of 2100 fps and above the first and second generation bullets are pretty equivalent. The higher BC of the BD2 assures higher impact velocities at longer ranges. The configuration of the hollow in the BD2 is such that the petals peel back easier and the base of each petal is wider to promote not only lower impact velocities but also at longer ranges. The best shots are quartering entering the base of the lungs on one side, going through both lungs at an angle and exiting at the base of the neck on the opposite side. Virtually every organ in the chest is hit. You need a bullet that can penetrate over 30" and retain 90+% of their original weight. Lead core bullets seldom fulfill the bill especially these days where most hunters want to push their bullets as fast as possible. Our bullets will work even with longitudinal shots, front or back.

I'm obviously failing to get my messages across in a understandable manner so accept my apology on those previous ones & I'll try this way

I don't care for gel it's only a reference tool & so many grey areas that I'll leave alone but I enjoy looking at it
so I'll use these as these instead

Now on these various pictures note how the permanent wound channel is different
With some giving basically caliber hole to end of a coke can size

So please tell me on the above that is clear
I'll call it point #1 that you understand what I'm relaying here ? A simple yes or no will be adequate & not trying to be abrasive I'm trying to work out how to ask these questions so we can both get on the same page
Now the #2 if your answer is YES please explain how quickly on impact your gen 2 pill goes from caliber to full function form ( transition zone ) & inches will be ok across the velocity impacts of 2000,2500,3000 or closely to them across those different resistances of a heavy shoulder & between the ribs & knock yourself out if you want to add more & 200/300 impacts of difference would be nice if you can & I'll just be happy if broadside but open to more angles once again

Now the #3
If your answer is NO to #1 please explain what you are seeing in those pictures & I will address your response from another angle to hopefully get on the same page

Looking forward to your response
Cheers

 

[nralifer]

Gday nrailer
Thanks again for the response below

I'm obviously failing to get my messages across in a understandable manner so accept my apology on those previous ones & I'll try this way

I don't care for gel it's only a reference tool & so many grey areas that I'll leave alone but I enjoy looking at it
so I'll use these as these instead View attachment 510170View attachment 510172View attachment 510173View attachment 510174View attachment 510175
Now on these various pictures note how the permanent wound channel is different
With some giving basically caliber hole to end of a coke can size

So please tell me on the above that is clear
I'll call it point #1 that you understand what I'm relaying here ? A simple yes or no will be adequate & not trying to be abrasive I'm trying to work out how to ask these questions so we can both get on the same page
Now the #2 if your answer is YES please explain how quickly on impact your gen 2 pill goes from caliber to full function form ( transition zone ) & inches will be ok across the velocity impacts of 2000,2500,3000 or closely to them across those different resistances of a heavy shoulder & between the ribs & knock yourself out if you want to add more & 200/300 impacts of difference would be nice if you can & I'll just be happy if broadside but open to more angles once again

Now the #3
If your answer is NO to #1 please explain what you are seeing in those pictures & I will address your response from another angle to hopefully get on the same page

Looking forward to your response
Cheers

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to justify the use of lead cores over copper bullets? Pictures of isolated damaged organs don't reveal much about the bullet performance because data on angle of impact, depth of penetration, impact velocity and distance of the shot and whether it was the only shot taken or whether it was the second or third shot, is missing. Throughout all my posts I emphasize these points and give data whenever it's available. You, or anyone else will never convince me that lead cores or low BC plastic tipped or untipped copper bullets are better than the high BC aluminum tipped bullets we make. I have been hunting big game off and on for over 40 years, the vast majority of the time with lead cores because that was all there was available. Went to Barnes for a couple of years and they were clearly better than lead cores at short distances but I found out they were unreliable in expansion. When they worked, they worked great, but much beyond 350-400 yds they were not expanding reliably. When I had the same problem of unreliable expansion even at less than 100 yds I decided that if I could find or make a more reliable bullet with a broader and more reliable performance envelope, I would do it. Because a lead core bullet can kill things is no indication of superiority. You can kill animals with rock salt or a lead ball. Lead cores are lousy bullets in quartering shots whereas copper bullets are much better. Our bullets are very reliable at even greater distances than other copper bullets because of the greater BCs. The BD2 line will do anything the BD line will do except at 100-200 yds further out. We did that to out do some of the claims of our competition. There clearly is a strong trend in marketing claims theses days to emphasize BC, something we have emphasized now for about 9 years. One may chose to believe us or not, but the proof is in the pudding. If one is not willing to try our bullets on several hunts then they can't make convincing arguments for or against.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Couldn't this be resolved easily by trying out the bullets for yourself, whether you purchase them on your own or he sends you some to try out like another manufacturer appears to have done?

 

[RH300UM]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to justify the use of lead cores over copper bullets? Pictures of isolated damaged organs don't reveal much about the bullet performance because data on angle of impact, depth of penetration, impact velocity and distance of the shot and whether it was the only shot taken or whether it was the second or third shot, is missing. Throughout all my posts I emphasize these points and give data whenever it's available. You, or anyone else will never convince me that lead cores or low BC plastic tipped or untipped copper bullets are better than the high BC aluminum tipped bullets we make. I have been hunting big game off and on for over 40 years, the vast majority of the time with lead cores because that was all there was available. Went to Barnes for a couple of years and they were clearly better than lead cores at short distances but I found out they were unreliable in expansion. When they worked, they worked great, but much beyond 350-400 yds they were not expanding reliably. When I had the same problem of unreliable expansion even at less than 100 yds I decided that if I could find or make a more reliable bullet with a broader and more reliable performance envelope, I would do it. Because a lead core bullet can kill things is no indication of superiority. You can kill animals with rock salt or a lead ball. Lead cores are lousy bullets in quartering shots whereas copper bullets are much better. Our bullets are very reliable at even greater distances than other copper bullets because of the greater BCs. The BD2 line will do anything the BD line will do except at 100-200 yds further out. We did that to out do some of the claims of our competition. There clearly is a strong trend in marketing claims theses days to emphasize BC, something we have emphasized now for about 9 years. One may chose to believe us or not, but the proof is in the pudding. If one is not willing to try our bullets on several hunts then they can't make convincing arguments for or against.

Couldn't this be resolved easily by trying out the bullets for yourself, whether you purchase them on your own or he sends you some to try out like another manufacturer appears to have done?

Fordy lives in Australia
He gets to shoot a lot of animals
He shoots more animals in a year than most of us get in a lifetime.
He has a vast amount of knowledge with terminal performance on animals. Especially on big, thick, heavy boned animals.
His terminology is different than ours.
Be patient.

 

[JAYgs8163]

It might be something they exchange email information on so they can have a more private conversation about each others findings. After they have ironed everything out and have an understanding of each other then it would be nice to hear back their joint findings and thoughts. Anyways…..

 

[Pdvdh]

Easy button? Shoot a few animals to get the first hand account of bullet performance on large game animals. Followed by a visual internal examination of harvested animals and bullet wound channels.

About the only way to get that level of detail regarding terminal performance.

Are these bullets not available in Australia?

 

[Mike D Texas]

Fordy lives in Australia
He gets to shoot a lot of animals
He shoots more animals in a year than most of us get in a lifetime.
He has a vast amount of knowledge with terminal performance on animals. Especially on big, thick, heavy boned animals.
His terminology is different than ours.
Be patient.

I know where he lives.
He seems to be asking a question that is IMO irrelevant regarding design changes. What difference does it make?

Also his second or perhaps revised question can't be definitively answered without actually shooting live animals.

 

[fordy]

Gday
I'll try & break this down the best I can
So apologies in advance on how I relay this information & length
& I'm going to ramble no doubt

Nrailer please understand this .& please don't take the defensive position as your pills still have room for improvement that's a factual statement based on a few things to follow but also one that is solely upto you if you take on board or dismiss
Maybe my background may help & where I am today after my years of doing what I do

So

I was a frangible junkie who never looked @ the wood in the trees once
Yes I was blinded by the wow factor of what those pills can & do do
Now they still have there place I believe but it's not where a lot of people will get the benefits over a better mono yes a better mono to the majority of people makes sense
& I emphasise a better mono as you need to break down & exactly the same as the frangible see where they are showing less than ideal results or weaknesses BEFORE!!!!!!! You can get to the better pills otherwise you will only get the consistency that you can achieve today ( which is fine for some ) & no better pills for tomorrow that's Terminally speaking & I'll leave bc alone but also part of it & today's world but if you believe you have no where left to improve I think our days are numbered but I think surely you can't think that from your previous comments in other threads

Once again terminal speaking

I'll put this straight up off the bat your gen 1 we're nothing spectacular & why I have asked for the improvements you've made in your gen 2 as I have limited time left on my life bullet testing & I basically won't waste my time yet I've got a few people asking for me to test badland pills which for a couple of the guys that have asked I am so close to organising them to come across to Aussie & asking for some idea of where you've improved , I respect these guys so much & also why I'm continuing with the information gathering on badlands before I commit

@Mike D Texas , @Pdvdh no we don't have availability of a lot of your component's but through my network of friends I can obtain them once I get my import permits organised for which I have & it's partly why no company basically knows how I can source their projectiles ( it's all legal ) , apex was a classic as he didn't have a clue & none of that information would have come out unless the issue I saw come up & I can't stand back & let someone put their self in that position when I know what potentially will happen on a more than just a one off basis, so I spoke up on here & man I copped a earful for that but to marks credit he adjusted & now confidence that the issue was not going to come up as he adjusted accordingly so a win win in my eyes
I've done the same with hammers also other bullet companies

I'm no guru but for those that know/ understand what I do find out the data can be valuable for that person/s I gather the information for & if it does come out that company can to take it on board & is upto them some do some don't some also don't know



nrailer I'm still worried as you are not instilling confidence in how your pills are any different to gen 1 yes I get the 200 less opening & your bc but think back on how long I've quizzed you & on what these were ( theirs a hint there even if you don't engage again for future improvements ) but I really don't get where you think I'm a frangible person as those days are long gone for me & only trying to improve the mono world of things today but maybe this i stated I'm intrigued by the ATip but I doubt I'll ever use it ( I did get some great data from a gentleman on the ATip who saw my intriguing comment on another thread & im very appreciative of that but in no way am I a frangible person as I'm what works best for that scenario & for me these days a frangible is not but surely nothing wrong with being intrigued as my learning from those guys on the new stuff is what I like to do surely that didn't label me as I'm over those )

my track record is pretty good from a position of finding weaknesses imo of course
Sometimes people letme know how important those findings are/were .

I don't get what I'm asking on/ for with badlands so I take another angle/path as I've demonstrated here but my writing skills are obviously letting me down

mike d yes the transition zone is so important on where the issues will start to show & then combine the other traits of any brand & watch the issues become reality ,
Yes I will show this as @RH300UM has seen with documentation yes photographic proof also as it's the only way imo if I test of course as I can't show what I don't test

Now if a company puts its head in the sand I will not engage yet the only reason I'm persistent with badlands is I know no other mushroom mono bullet companies in the USA on lrh ( yes I can go & join another group or other forums but man I've had enough crap from some here ( not you guys in this thread I take no offence to these comments as I see those as trying to help ) so why start that process again as my time is limited & why I won't join other forums let alone look ( I have looked when links are forwarded to me but I won't search) as I invest all I can with what I do now just take this last few days on this thread I'll just say I'm sleep deprived

There is a whole in the mushroom mono performance world that can be fixed & I know this for a fact as one of our Aussie companies has proven that it can be done ( not my work that showed this ) yes I've tested those & seen it is possible

So I'm trying to get those who want the mushroom mono pills to get even better results as I highly doubt this Aussie company will grace your shores & it's bc isn't as high but terminally superior no doubting that so yes it can be done terminally

Now if this above is one that offends just let me know as it's not my intention & I'll leave this topic but I will not stand back when I know with a very high certainty that a problem exists & I see a issue as history will repeat & when it does or I'm asked I will speak up so that person understands those issues & if the company won't address the person can with shot placement to some point


So before I get into the depths of why certain things happen I need to know what I'm spending time on @ present is not be in vain as when I show what will happen I want reassurance that it won't be flogged off as a example it's already been acknowledged as in your words nrailer or close to them
"Straight line penertration unless bone is encountered " so I commend you on stating that
That sir is 100% true for your bullets not all the time but it is a issue that does present from time to time & for most guys on deer not a big issue as penertration length of that won't be a concern on broadside now move to angles & bigger critters & like others have posted bad stuff occurs now move to RH300UM & that is one I'm very concerned with as that is potentially life threatening & I've already proven to him previously how he needed to be careful on what he chose & from what I've also found out since then he needs to shift pills once again as way better options now
( sorry rh that should've been pm or another thread & will chat about that asap )
The reason I bring those up is depending on circumstances I'll either stay quiet or speak up but I will also call BS & back that up with factual information

Sorry if that comes across as abrasive once again not my intention & probably won't be back on lrh for a bit for personal reasons but I'll get back when I can

Sorry for that jumble above & length

Nrailer please Just be up front with me do you want me to leave this thread or discuss further so we don't waste ea others time
Cheers