Badlands Precision Bullets thread - From BC to terminal ballistics

[akmtnhnt]

Further clarification. The SG values in my post #1, 282 were calculated based on the full length of the bullet, at standard atmospheric density (sea level).

If I deduct ~2/3 the tip length from the bullet length, which I believe is reasonable for purposes of to determine stable flight through air (i.e. will they shoot well on paper, all three bullet SG values exceed 1.5

But as RockyMtnMT clarified in Post #1,285, you want to determine your bullet's sea level SG from your barrel's twist rate. And I'd suggest using the entire length of the bullet when running the SG calculation. Because this SG calculation has nothing to do with predicting stable flight in air. It's an SG value to help ensure good terminal performance after the bullet strikes home. To help ensure straight-line penetration, and avoid the boomerang bullet wound channels I've experienced.

Use the JBM calculator and use a "plastic" tip length of .1" since aluminum is heavier than plastic, it approximates the density difference.

Also always worth verifying your twist rate in your barrel.

For atmosphere up here I always use sea level, 20F and 30.50 for pressure. Fairly dense air, and covers me through most any late fall hunt I'd do. We get colder air and higher pressure, but I'm unlikely to be hunting in a density higher than that.

 

[codyadams]

I also believe that mono bullets don't quite adhere to standard cup and core calculations for stability either with their lesser density, mainly as bullets get long for bore diameter.

 

[fordy]

Not trying to be the spoiler, but I've now had two (2) Badlands Precision Bulldozer bullets, and one (1) Cutting Edge Lazer bullet, corkscrew off-course in three (3) different game animals.

Two were in bull moose, and one in a bull caribou.

I don't mean a little off course. I mean a 60 to 80-degree deviation from straight-line penetration!

One bull moose was hit in the spine behind the shoulder with a .338 275gr BD bullet. Bullet was recovered under the hide, near his butt-hole. Bull moose was standing broadside when bullet struck him. This bullet traveled about 4 1/2 feet inside the animal. My SG value on this bullet was calculated at 1.26

Another bull moose was hit just behind the liver, mid-height on the body, with a .338 265gr Cutting Edge Lazer bullet. Bullet was recovered in the off-side front shoulder meat. This bullet hit no heavy bone on entry side. Possibly hit one of the small rearward ribs upon entry, at the most. Profile of this bull moose when shot, was again, completely broadside. This bullet traveled a distance of about 4 feet inside the animal. My SG value on this bullet was calculated at 1.41

Bull caribou was hit mid-height in the ribs, just behind the front shoulder muscle, with a .308 196.5gr Badlands Bulldozer bullet. Bull caribou was completely broadside when this bullet entered his body. The bullet exited the offside rear ham, in front of the rear leg bone. Bullet traveled a distance of about 3 1/2 feet inside the animal before exiting out the offside rear ham muscle. No heavy bone contact during bullet travel through this animal. Bullet could have hit a rib on the entry side of his rib cage. My SG value on this bullet was calculated at 1.40

If you plan to hunt large game with copper mono bullets, I recommend shooting them from a barrel with a twist rate sufficient to provide a bullet stability (SG value) of at least 1.75

And I feel a SG value of 2.0 would be even better. Because I've read on this Forum that Hammer Bullets recommends a minimum SG value of 2.0 with their copper bullets, to help ensure straight-line bullet penetration.

How copper mono bullets can corkscrew off-course from straight-line penetration as much as 80 degrees, and still penetrate 4 1/2 feet? I dunno. It's both dumbfounding, and amazing! Just about have to see it firsthand, in order to believe it.

Gday pdvdh

Great observations & can't emphasise enough on twist regardless of brand especially monos yes I've had a lot of companies do that exact same thing but twist is only a Band-Aid although a very good one

Now balance a pill & anybrand & watch those issues decrease dramatically .
Also Watch that meplat shape & in any style of bullet & of any alloy this is so important to getting straight line penertration but once again twist helps tremendously & im staying away from other reasons

It's extremely confusing when you shoot a critter on the eg left broadside & get a exit the same side or find that pill on the same side as you have
But if we keep showing these results to the companies they may adjust the parameters they advertise
Some do some don't but if we keep showing the lightbulb surely has to come on & then they may put in a little bit more information that will help the new comer not get those poor results from time to time & if that company takes the next step of pushing to get more balanced pills we as hunters gain along with the critter that died quicker

Hammer advertises 1.5 but some advise the 2as a safety margin just like they would with anybrand

Jm2cw
Cheers

 

[akmtnhnt]

I also believe that mono bullets don't quite adhere to standard cup and core calculations for stability either with their lesser density, mainly as bullets get long for bore diameter.

If you're using the Miller formula, mass, length and caliber are all variables, which is close to density. The length and caliber aren't perfect for volume as it's not a cylinder, it's still accounting for density(which is why it's d^3*l(1+l^2) and not just pi*.5d^2*l). A lead bullet of the same caliber cannot weigh less than a copper bullet if they have anything approximating the same volume/shape.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Not trying to be the spoiler, but I've now had two (2) Badlands Precision Bulldozer bullets, and one (1) Cutting Edge Lazer bullet, corkscrew off-course in three (3) different game animals.

Two were in bull moose, and one in a bull caribou.

I don't mean a little off course. I mean a 60 to 80-degree deviation from straight-line penetration!

One bull moose was hit in the spine behind the shoulder with a .338 275gr BD bullet. Bullet was recovered under the hide, near his butt-hole. Bull moose was standing broadside when bullet struck him. This bullet traveled about 4 1/2 feet inside the animal. My SG value on this bullet was calculated at 1.26

Another bull moose was hit just behind the liver, mid-height on the body, with a .338 265gr Cutting Edge Lazer bullet. Bullet was recovered in the off-side front shoulder meat. This bullet hit no heavy bone on entry side. Possibly hit one of the small rearward ribs upon entry, at the most. Profile of this bull moose when shot, was again, completely broadside. This bullet traveled a distance of about 4 feet inside the animal. My SG value on this bullet was calculated at 1.41

Bull caribou was hit mid-height in the ribs, just behind the front shoulder muscle, with a .308 196.5gr Badlands Bulldozer bullet. Bull caribou was completely broadside when this bullet entered his body. The bullet exited the offside rear ham, in front of the rear leg bone. Bullet traveled a distance of about 3 1/2 feet inside the animal before exiting out the offside rear ham muscle. No heavy bone contact during bullet travel through this animal. Bullet could have hit a rib on the entry side of his rib cage. My SG value on this bullet was calculated at 1.40

If you plan to hunt large game with copper mono bullets, I recommend shooting them from a barrel with a twist rate sufficient to provide a bullet stability (SG value) of at least 1.75

And I feel a SG value of 2.0 would be even better. Because I've read on this Forum that Hammer Bullets recommends a minimum SG value of 2.0 with their copper bullets, to help ensure straight-line bullet penetration.

How copper mono bullets can corkscrew off-course from straight-line penetration as much as 80 degrees, and still penetrate 4 1/2 feet? I dunno. It's both dumbfounding, and amazing! Just about have to see it firsthand, in order to believe it.

If you go back to page 54 I believe I had a similar result on my bull last year. Broadside shot, entered just behind the shoulder near side and exited the stomach far side. I initially blamed myself for possibly not recognizing the animal was quartered toward me but by partner and I both felt he was broadside. This might explain it.

150gr BDII's out of a 1/8 twist 7 SAUM. So plenty stable, but I have my doubts from a physics standpoint that stability factor matters in the terminal realm. I'm no physicist, but you just can't spin a bullet fast enough to maintain stability in a medium as dense as flesh.

I'm a bit nervous using these again this year, but the ammo is loaded and the rifle is sighted. It's a bit too late to develop a new load… I'm willing to give them another shot I guess.

 

[akmtnhnt]

If you go back to page 54 I believe I had a similar result on my bull last year. Broadside shot, entered just behind the shoulder near side and exited the stomach far side. I initially blamed myself for possibly not recognizing the animal was quartered toward me but by partner and I both felt he was broadside. This might explain it.

150gr BDII's out of a 1/8 twist 7 SAUM. So plenty stable, but I have my doubts from a physics standpoint that stability factor matters in the terminal realm. I'm no physicist, but you just can't spin a bullet fast enough to maintain stability in a medium as dense as flesh.

I'm a bit nervous using these again this year, but the ammo is loaded and the rifle is sighted. It's a bit too late to develop a new load… I'm willing to give them another shot I guess.

I assume impact velocity was sufficient for good expansion? Something that helps stability tremendously is the bullet becoming shorter.

 

[fordy]

Gday
Twist rates re spin of pill definitely has the ability to keep a pill in a straight line terminally throughout flesh & bone
Now it may not stop it but it will lesson it or I should say the length to when it starts to turn will be increased as you increase twist

True solids are the best to see this in & the old round nose solid although it accounted for many a critter it was not without its failures then someone flattened the nose off & hey presto penertration length was basically doubled yep doubled & this is straight line

Then a few companies went to work on different systems but without a doubt the non rounded meplats just kept tracking straighter for longer ( some have cup point to slight dishes others just flat from start )
Now move to the expanding or shedding mono world & I'll stay with the mushroom monos here as it's what this thread is about

Watch those meplats closely people & you will get a sweet spot on the mushroom being nice & flat on the meplat & with the hmmm actually I just deleted this brand pill as it's important to understand the basics first & surely I can't get into a crap over it this way this was around the 2600 /2700 mark now push it faster or depending on resistance you will get a more rounded meplat then slower & you also get it rounded now all mushroom monos are not the same & some will do it @2500 others 2800 some do it in a narrow window others this is wider
Now I'm deliberately leaving size of the mushroom out of this as if you don't have that flat meplat you need a Band-Aid to help & that is twist as simple as that with that chosen pill now other factors also come into what keeps a mushroom mono or any other pill for that matter straight line
But if one can grasp that part first you will start to watch even c&c & also why the great old Partition killed well the last lot I shot of those were hmmm I'll leave that for another day lol

Hope that makes sense & just watch those meplats as it's a great place to start imo of course

Cheers

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

I assume impact velocity was sufficient for good expansion? Something that helps stability tremendously is the bullet becoming shorter.

Should've been ~2600 so plenty. I did find one petal near the far side hide, so I'm not sure if because it lost one petal and didn't shed the others that caused a weird wound track.

 

[Northkill]

I had a 90° impact vs exit scenario on a behind the shoulder hit with impact velocity around 3200 fps (150 gr / 8 twist @3670 muzzle velocity) I figured it was because my velocity was so high. Funny stuff happens sometimes. If it's a pattern though, that would bother me a bit.

 

[HenryT]

My experience with the 135gn SBD2

First a little background.
My rifle is a Short action 6.5 PRC with a 22-inch Proof prefit. The barrel has a 1:7.5 twist (I was assured this would be enough to stabilize the 135s as I live and shoot above 3500'.) I'm currently using the Hawkins Precision Hunter magazines, which allow for a cartridge overall length of 2.980 but may switch to a wyatts box for a little extra length. I'm sure my journey would have been much easier on a mid-length or long action, but I wanted to see if I could build an acceptable load in the SA.

I found the jam at a COAL of 3.125. With recommended jump starts around 0.025 off the lands, which meant a mag-length cartridge would be jumping 0.145. Not ideal.

Powder Selection and Testing:
I started with RL 26, using once-fired Hornady brass with Federal 210 match primers. My ladder tests revealed nodes around 58 grains and 60 grains. However, seating depth tests hinted that magazine-length was probably my best bet.

After some initial testing on once-fired hornady brass, I bought some fresh Peterson brass and got to work. With RL26, n560 and n565.

I experimented with neolube #2, in the necks, hoping to refine my SD/ES numbers further still and managed a near 10% reduction in both figures.

Results were pretty solid:​

• 60 grains of RL26 produced an average velocity of 3158 with an ES of 22 and .338 MOA groups
• 59.5 grains of VV N560 produced an average velocity of 3135 with an ES of 37 and .456 MOA groups
• 60 grains of RL26 produced an average velocity of 3059 with an ES of 8 and .256 MOA groups

​

Despite impressive speeds from n560 and RL26, I landed on n565, on account of temperature stability and single-digit ES/SD's.

Ballistic calculators indicated this would maintain minimum required velocity for expansion out to 850 yards. I then trued velocity and BC, validated with a few extra rounds, and prepped 40 for hunting season.

Now it also happens that I was lucky enough to draw a mountain goat tag this year - In fact, this was my primary motivation to do all this work. I'll save the hunt story for another time, but it ended with a 467-yard broadside shot. I was able to watch the impact through my scope but it only took one & he was down in seconds. I did not spend a lot of time examining the wound Channel but did find what appeared to be two petal exits quite a ways from the main tract. I've taken a good number of animals with Hammer Hunter 124's going close to the same speed out of a 6.5cm, and I would say that the bulldozer represents about a perfect balance between those and the more traditional monolithics, with an obvious advantage where external ballistics are concerned. Very pleased with the result.

Being fairly new to this, I'm interested in your feedback. I'm especially curious if anyone has built similar loads but in a medium or long actions. Also, does anyone care to explain this SG issue to me like I'm 5? Should I be nervous about running the 135s in a 1:7.5 barrel?

Thanks!

 

[fordy]

Gday northkill
Phew a level head & looks like your not the only one
Looks like I can delve a bit deeper with you & those who want to understand a bit more

I had a 90° impact vs exit scenario on a behind the shoulder hit with impact velocity around 3200 fps (150 gr / 8 twist @3670 muzzle velocity) I figured it was because my velocity was so high. Funny stuff happens sometimes. If it's a pattern though, that would bother me a bit.

Yes funny stuff does happen every now & then but I guarantee there is a reason we are just not smart enough to see it well I'm not as some I really scratch my head with & after numerous attempts to replicate I give up & just right it off but the ones I have seen often I nearly guarantee you would have had a compromised meplat now if that was in a smaller critter or less resistance etc the path before the turn would probably never be seen until oneday & you sir got that oneday then .

now It won't happen all the time that's the frustrating thing , I should say good thing as it's better it doesn't but frustrates me because it does show up all the time in different ways & just look here with different people & different brands & it's by clearing our heads & getting back to basics we start to see patterns & what the companies can improve on if they wish let alone understand & individually if one wants to be part of the bingo raffle is upto them so
Go for it but don't blame what is a pattern when it happens oh & one maybe lucky to never have it happen as a bingo raffle seems to go like that but play the game enough & it will , well to someone

The most consistent part of what's happening to cause this can be traced back to the shape of the meplat or marginal twist
Combine those 2 & your % goes way higher

Those are factual results that once you see you can't deny , well imo of course but if it's not so , please show me the errors in what has shown to be a extremely reliable indicator

A good place to start one's learning ability is to use true solids & potentially this maybe handguns for a lot of you guys mine was DG & I can't fault the good true solids of today yes I don't see or find any faults in those designs yet there is also different variations of them & some suite a application better than another & visa versa
Hmmm sounds like c&c , monos as a great example well imo once again

I just hope that the companies delve deeper & give us that pretty well perfect pill in a non true solid pill in time to come

Cheers

 

[ObiWanKannoli]

Got my 205gr SBD-2's in 300 PRC loaded for a charge ladder. 3.790" COAL in fresh ADG brass, starting at 74gr Retumbo and prepared loads up to 77.7 using the 208gr Barnes LRX as a basis.

 

[cbuck516]

Our first rifle deer season arrived here in Missouri this weekend and both my boys ended up shooting their first deer, a whitetail doe, using the 0.257" SBD2 110gr.

The rifle used was a Howa 1500 25-06AI with 26" 1:7" and Omega 300 suppressor, an 11# rifle fully loaded, so I don't want to hear any complaints about an adult that thinks a 10# rifle is heavy
Muzzle velocity on this load is 3421fps.

The first deer shot yesterday was a young doe and the shot was taken almost perfectly broadside at 75 yards. Impact velocity was approximately 3305fps with 2668ft.# of energy. Bullet impact perfectly mid body, but back near the last rib. Exit was slightly forward of that on the opposite side. Per usual, entrance hole what bullet diameter and exit was slightly larger than 1" with evidence that there was some amount of fragmentation with multiple small exit holes surrounding the shank exit hole. The bullet destroyed the liver with additional damage to the rumen and minor damage to one lung lobe. There were a few dark spots of blood at POI, but there was no additional blood to be found for the first 100 yards of the path the deer ran. Once blood trail started, the deer lasted another 20 yards. I would have preferred that the shot be further forward into the front shoulder, but even I have made this same shot before so I can't fault a 6-year old too much.

How doe was found with exit wound facing up.

Damage done to liver

Exit hole showing possible fragmentation.

The second deer shot with this bullet was a mature doe with much different shot placement. Doe was in the same shooting lane and virtually the same position but about 5 yards closer. Bullet entered in the front leg and exited just behind the crease in the opposite side. She ran a total of 15 yards and last maybe two seconds.
Bullet and bone fragmentation was significant with this shot and destruction was unlike anything I have seen with a solid copper bullet, not even my 300 PRC. Blood trail was very significant and had bright red blood sprayed all over the vegetation for the full 15 yards. My 8-year old easily blood trailed the deer without assistance. Again, entrance was roughly bullet diameter and exit was roughly 1", but internal damage was a much more than the exterior suggested. The front leg where the bullet entered was completely broken and I found copper fragments under the hide on opposite side.

Second deer showing entrance hole in front shoulder.

Thumb pointing at location of bullet entry. Blood under skin all the way to the back of the ribs.

After removing front quarter the bullets entrance into the chest cavity was found. Nearly a 3" opening just forward of the heart. Significant blood found through, but it appeared to not be bloodshot meat, just pooled and coagulated blood.

Bullet exit behind the crease. ~1" exit.

Chest cavity at bullet exit.

Copper fragments under hide on opposite side

In addition to being grateful for harvesting these two animals and sharing that experience with my kids for their first deer, I was pleased to be able to see two very different shot placements in the same day with the exact same bullet.
One shot was a little too far back for my liking and one was hard into the front shoulder.

The one that was too far back had very minimal impact with bone and blood trail was nearly non-existent. The shot into the shoulder had significant bone impact and significant trauma to the circulatory system, spraying blood out of the exit wound.

The biggest lesson reinforced today is, "put the bullet in the right spot". For me that is into the heart/lung area and not behind the crease. I have shot deer with lead core bullets too far back and have had the same results, dead deer but no blood trail. Same thing with lead core on elk. Shot in liver, ran 100 yards, but no blood trail.

This is the behavior I was hoping to see with this bullet as I have cautiously been approaching the idea of using it on elk this fall. I am very confident in that choice now for distances out to 400 yards. I know many won't consider that long range, but when I rarely shoot deer past 100, 400 is pretty far out there.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Our first rifle deer season arrived here in Missouri this weekend and both my boys ended up shooting their first deer, a whitetail doe, using the 0.257" SBD2 110gr.

The rifle used was a Howa 1500 25-06AI with 26" 1:7" and Omega 300 suppressor, an 11# rifle fully loaded, so I don't want to hear any complaints about an adult that thinks a 10# rifle is heavy
Muzzle velocity on this load is 3421fps.

The first deer shot yesterday was a young doe and the shot was taken almost perfectly broadside at 75 yards. Impact velocity was approximately 3305fps with 2668ft.# of energy. Bullet impact perfectly mid body, but back near the last rib. Exit was slightly forward of that on the opposite side. Per usual, entrance hole what bullet diameter and exit was slightly larger than 1" with evidence that there was some amount of fragmentation with multiple small exit holes surrounding the shank exit hole. The bullet destroyed the liver with additional damage to the rumen and minor damage to one lung lobe. There were a few dark spots of blood at POI, but there was no additional blood to be found for the first 100 yards of the path the deer ran. Once blood trail started, the deer lasted another 20 yards. I would have preferred that the shot be further forward into the front shoulder, but even I have made this same shot before so I can't fault a 6-year old too much.

How doe was found with exit wound facing up.
View attachment 500078

Damage done to liver
View attachment 500079

Exit hole showing possible fragmentation.
View attachment 500081

The second deer shot with this bullet was a mature doe with much different shot placement. Doe was in the same shooting lane and virtually the same position but about 5 yards closer. Bullet entered in the front leg and exited just behind the crease in the opposite side. She ran a total of 15 yards and last maybe two seconds.
Bullet and bone fragmentation was significant with this shot and destruction was unlike anything I have seen with a solid copper bullet, not even my 300 PRC. Blood trail was very significant and had bright red blood sprayed all over the vegetation for the full 15 yards. My 8-year old easily blood trailed the deer without assistance. Again, entrance was roughly bullet diameter and exit was roughly 1", but internal damage was a much more than the exterior suggested. The front leg where the bullet entered was completely broken and I found copper fragments under the hide on opposite side.

Second deer showing entrance hole in front shoulder.
View attachment 500083

Thumb pointing at location of bullet entry. Blood under skin all the way to the back of the ribs.
View attachment 500084

After removing front quarter the bullets entrance into the chest cavity was found. Nearly a 3" opening just forward of the heart. Significant blood found through, but it appeared to not be bloodshot meat, just pooled and coagulated blood.
View attachment 500085

Bullet exit behind the crease. ~1" exit.
View attachment 500086

Chest cavity at bullet exit.
View attachment 500087

Copper fragments under hide on opposite side
View attachment 500088

In addition to being grateful for harvesting these two animals and sharing that experience with my kids for their first deer, I was pleased to be able to see two very different shot placements in the same day with the exact same bullet.
One shot was a little too far back for my liking and one was hard into the front shoulder.

The one that was too far back had very minimal impact with bone and blood trail was nearly non-existent. The shot into the shoulder had significant bone impact and significant trauma to the circulatory system, spraying blood out of the exit wound.

The biggest lesson reinforced today is, "put the bullet in the right spot". For me that is into the heart/lung area and not behind the crease. I have shot deer with lead core bullets too far back and have had the same results, dead deer but no blood trail. Same thing with lead core on elk. Shot in liver, ran 100 yards, but no blood trail.

This is the behavior I was hoping to see with this bullet as I have cautiously been approaching the idea of using it on elk this fall. I am very confident in that choice now for distances out to 400 yards. I know many won't consider that long range, but when I rarely shoot deer past 100, 400 is pretty far out there.

Thank you for the detail. I'm considering the same bullet in a 25 Sherman LA and a future 25 Max at similar velocity. Very helpful.