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Applied Ballistics 'Shoot Thru Target' Challenge

aaronraad,
I'm looking for my book right now so that I can scan in the rest of the article. There's more interesting stuff in there that might shed light on your questions about why a greater manifestation in the vertical plane. I've seen Bart Bobbit say that it was present in the M14 because of the gas port drilled in the 6 o'clock position. Audette(?) talks about multiple modes of vibration in barrels, and such.
I'd appreciate that Chris F.

I know there is a lot of knowledge tied up with a few individuals that carried out near scientific testing level over the decades with organisational resources. The problem is that most of it was only documented to a level required for a representative team to achieve a result, as they never had the time or assistance to do so. Finding actual reports, analysis and papers on the subjects such as these is like gold as the majority is propriety or classified information. Without documented evidence and reports, there is nothing to critic/peer review/replicate/verify for us to put real science into essentially a sporting hobby for most.
 
Great thread Bryan. I also have tried a variety of targets and concluded that smaller aimpoints helped reduce my group size.

Very interesting anecdote about the larger white ring around the bull with iron sights.

Looking forward to reading more on this subject.
 
Hi fellas,

To mark the occasion of Applied Ballistics becoming a proud sponsor of the LRH forum, I'd like to pose the following.

First, some background:
There's a common discussion topic based on the observation that some rifles seem to shoot smaller angular groups at longer ranges, for example, 1 inch groups at 100 yards, and also 1 inch groups at 200 yards. This could also be expressed as 1 MOA at 100, and 1/2 MOA at 200. I'll refer to this as non-liner dispersion, which is anytime a rifle groups smaller MOA at farther range.

I've read many discussions about it over the years. I've done a great deal of 6-DOF modeling in attempts to understand bullet dispersion, and have come up short on a ballistic explanation for this phenomena.

Here's my current working theory for explaining the reports of non-linear dispersion:

The first conclusion many shooters come to is that the bullets are actually flying in a way that keeps them from dispersing proportionally downrange. Most discussions about stability, yawing, epicyclic swerve, etc stem from this line of thought. So far I've been unable to identify any aero-ballistic mechanism for this to be possible.
Furthermore on this theory; Lets assume for a moment that the bullet really is flying a corkscrew flight path of constant, or diminishing magnitude. In order for the groups to be angularly bigger at shorter range would *require* that the bullets always passed thru the 100 yard target on the OUTER edge of their orbit, and pass thru the longer range target on the INNER edge of their orbit. We're already out on a limb by assuming that epicyclic swerve is happening (modeling suggests that this only happens on a very small scale, like 0.030") but now we have to also require that there's some pattern to how the bullet passes thru short range vs. long range targets. To me this concept feels like it's way out on a limb, over thin ice.

Now let's take another view.

If you think about how these observations come about, which is someone shooting groups at 100, THEN at 200, a different explanation is possible. This line of thought suggests that the rifle shoots bigger at short range due to some aiming error that's present at short range which is corrected at long range. Parallax is an optical mechanism which can certainly explain this. Another is the size of the target in relation to the reticle being more favorable for 'aiming small' at longer ranges. Finally there's the physiological aspect where shooters may be 'trying harder' to shoot groups at longer range.
The key aspect of this second line of thought is that it allows for these observations (of non-linear dispersion) to be valid, but don't require the bullet to fly a corkscrew flight path.

In order to know which of the above explanations is the true cause of the observed non-linear dispersion, a 'shoot thru' target was constructed at the Applied Ballistics Lab.

You can see the shoot thru target here:
ShootThruTgt-297x300.png


Basically there's a thin sheet of paper held above the line of sight to the 300 yard target. Groups fired at the 100 yard target 'pass thru' and print on the 300 yard paper. By screening the SAME group at both ranges, we can see exactly how the shot group actually disperses. We can aim at the 100 yard paper and shoot a group, then aim at the 300 yard paper and shoot a group, and see how they compare at both ranges. In this way, we hope to discover IF non-linear dispersion actually happens, or if it's just a perception caused by some kind of aiming error. Here's a picture showing the 100 and 300 yard targets with groups printed on both:
View attachment 40949

Interesting note; the top midle, and top right aim points were shot with a TRG-42, 338 Lapua Mag 1:10" twist and 300 grain Cutting Edge bullets. This was a deliberate test of a low stability case. Note that even though the bullets were key-holing at 300 yards, the groups weren't all that bad and were still proportional to their group at 100 yards. Why the bullets were stable enough to print round holes at 100 and not at 300 is another mystery. To be sure it wasn't interference from the paper, I also shot this same load direct to 300, and got the same keyholes.

Nevertheless; to date we've fired dozens of combinations of calibers, bullets, twist rates, etc. So far NOTHING has shown anything but near perfect linear dispersion.

So where does this leave us?
We have a logical dilemma: "we haven't observed non-linear dispersion in any of the testing that we've done, but we still can't claim with certainty that it doesn't happen because we haven't tested every possible rifle and combination". There are still many shooters swearing they see it on a regular basis.

It's disappointing that we haven't reached a more decisive conclusion, but I'm not giving up yet. So what's the next step? Well, certainly it must be something dramatic, and involve live fire! So here it is.

The Applied Ballistics 'Shoot Thru Target' Challange
I'm inviting any shooter who has a rifle which exhibits non-linear dispersion to the Applied Ballistics Laboratory in Michigan to demonstrate the effect. I'll pay your travel and hotel stay (If you successfully demonstrate the effect, I'll even pay your *return* travel as well :)) The objective is to produce a repeatable example of this phenomena so it can be studied and hopefully we can learn what's going on.

This is a friendly challenge with the objective of learning. As much fun as it is to discuss all the theories online, I'd really like to actually solve this one.

Any takers?

-Bryan
My rifle exhibits non-linear dispersion with 180 glain 7mm VLD's. After 200 yards, the bullet "goes dead" and holds that size to almost 500.

I can only make sense of this by the reasoning that the quasi- corkscrew motion has been overcome by the frictional force of atmospheric conditions by the 200 yards mark.

So I have a loose idea of how to model the equation for this, but I need to work on it more. Once I finish it, I will pass it on to you (if I ever do)

After the equation,you may be able to model it on a computer and the test the heck out of it. But I think that this effect is a result of load combinations, not bullet design.

If a bullet was also wobbling around its center plane, I see how you might get a diminished effect after velocity has been reduced enough to allow the bullet to correct. The trick with the equation is that you are going to have an increasing effect to a certain distance until drops off.
 
How do the bullets that "go dead", or go to sleep, consistently self-correct for the dispersion that's already occurred prior to going dead? The dispersion already experienced is engrained into the dispersion experienced farther down range, unless the bullets consistently self-correct toward the center of the already established dispersion (dispersion measured as group size in either inches or MOA).

That's the inconceivable. Why would going dead or going to sleep, always occur at the precise time and in the correct manner, to enable a reduction in dispersion farther down range? Dispersion that's already been baked into these bullets' path of flight in the portion of their flight prior to going dead.

A reduction in the rate of dispersion doesn't consistently occur by happenstance. The bullets would have to be under the influence of a guidance system, design specifically to counter the natural randomness of nature.

This is impossible, at least with the bullets I purchase and shoot.

Not to say I haven't heard of claims of it from others before. I would have to experience this in a manner that eliminates all of the other possible causes that could result in an incorrect conclusion, before I could conceive of its existence. Bryan isn't trying to prove that non-linear dispersion occurs. He trying to identify the causative factor that could lead one to the errant conclusion that non-linear dispersion is for real.

I've read that it's theoretically possible to drop all the individual parts of a watch on the floor and end up with a perfectly functional watch. The odds are darn small. And it never happens with consistency.
 
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This may be a totally different thing but if you watch rockets launch on you tube you can see some corkscrew way more than their diameter and it diminishes with distance. They seem to do exactly what people say is impossible and self correct. Just an idea.
 
Rockets fly, bullets fall.
Those thinking bullets departed from desired path, would correct themselves somehow back to desired path, just aren't thinking it through.
The wobble settles out, but any path departure caused by that wobble continues.
phorwath is right
 
This video shows bullets in a diminishing corkscrew.



Obviously it's deliberatley induced but maybe imbalanced bullets can do it. So testing may be better suited to bullets with lower quality control?
 
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Just trying to help the people that want to work this out. Not really sure what this self correcting talk comes from. From what I saw in that video of a badly imbalanced bullet it appeared to move from right to left and back way more than one diameter.
But I have had a fair bit of cough syrup today!
 
This may be a totally different thing but if you watch rockets launch on you tube you can see some corkscrew way more than their diameter and it diminishes with distance. They seem to do exactly what people say is impossible and self correct. Just an idea.

Stabilising a rocket starting from zero velocity at relatively high angles closer to vertical is different, but they do use spin stabilisation when required.

Rockets designed for altitude also have the advantage of requiring less spin to stabilise as the media (air atmosphere) reduces in density. Spin might be induced by the launch tube, fins or angled thrusters placed around the tube outside diameter for example, with effects reduced as altitude is achieved, as desired.

Launching rockets at velocity with relative airspeeds closer to Mach and above is typically done closer to the horizontal plane, and designers are met with stability issues closer to ours. It's always good to launch forward facing rockets at your vehicle speed lower than the rocket launch speed and definitely lower than the rocket's max speed. Nobody likes rear-ending their own rocket. :rolleyes:
 
Bryan,

I wonder if the optical problem proposed for the apparently smaller groups seen in your initial tests is the result of the parallax focus knobs themselves? My assumption is that most of the newer side focus models are actually harder to set parallax correctly on since they have a much narrower/coarser adjustment range than do the older adjustable objective models. I'd be interested in whether you saw the same thing if using a NF benchrest scope or something similar where you'd expect most of the components to be the same, but just a different focus mechanism.
 
How do the bullets that "go dead", or go to sleep, consistently self-correct for the dispersion that's already occurred prior to going dead? The dispersion already experienced is engrained into the dispersion experienced farther down range, unless the bullets consistently self-correct toward the center of the already established dispersion (dispersion measured as group size in either inches or MOA).

That's the inconceivable. Why would going dead or going to sleep, always occur at the precise time and in the correct manner, to enable a reduction in dispersion farther down range? Dispersion that's already been baked into these bullets' path of flight in the portion of their flight prior to going dead.

A reduction in the rate of dispersion doesn't consistently occur by happenstance. The bullets would have to be under the influence of a guidance system, design specifically to counter the natural randomness of nature.

This is impossible, at least with the bullets I purchase and shoot.

Not to say I haven't heard of claims of it from others before. I would have to experience this in a manner that eliminates all of the other possible causes that could result in an incorrect conclusion, before I could conceive of its existence. Bryan isn't trying to prove that non-linear dispersion occurs. He trying to identify the causative factor that could lead one to the errant conclusion that non-linear dispersion is for real.

I've read that it's theoretically possible to drop all the individual parts of a watch on the floor and end up with a perfectly functional watch. The odds are darn small. And it never happens with consistency.

I am kind of agreeing with you. But I am saying that dispersion is not linear. I.e a 2" group at 200 and a 2.25" group at 300 yards. The bullet isn't "correcting its course" it just reaches a point of diminishing result and the pattern stops opening up to the same degree it was at closer ranges

Those who are arguing over vocabulary certainly aren't offering any help to obtain any real data for Bryan. Might as well just avoid it.
 
If I may, I think that what phorwath is saying is that physics demands that once the bullet attains some velocity in some direction away from the point of aim, causing dispersion, that it can't just " stop opening up"... There would have to be another force acting to stop it, and no known force exists. It would continue to open up until impact and the dispersion would be linear.
That's why Bryan is offering to pay for someone to demonstrate on paper at his range an example of non linear dispersion, the evidence is stacking up that it doesn't exist.
 
Thank you for clearly expressing the primary concept I attempted to communicate. And you accomplished it in a simple and succinct manner.
 
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