Applied Ballistics 'Shoot Thru Target' Challenge

Chris,

Thanks for posting links to that material. I spent the last 2 hours re-reading parts of Mann's book which was referenced in the threads, in particular the parts where he investigated dispersion by shooting thru paper screens at many ranges. Short summary:

Mann conducted extensive testing of many bullets, some having 'mutilated' tips and bases (small holes or flats filed on them to introduce specific imbalances). Several of his experiments were on a similar 'shoot-thru' target at 100/175 yards. In all groups, he found perfectly linear dispersion between these two ranges. His closing statement in this section:

"This 175 and 100 yard screen work clearly indicates that at 175, 100, or 50 yards, 88 or 16 1/2 feet, the great trouble in rifle shooting lies in the fact that the bullets do not start in the line of fire at the muzzle, and rifleman who wish to do something had better fight it out at that line"

Mann's testing on the subject was motivated by the same question as ours, which is rifleman observing what they think was poorer proportional grouping at 100 than 200.

As for Gale McMillains account of testing .50 calibers, this is often cited as 'solid' evidence of converging groups due to the sheer volume of rounds fired at 100 and 600 yards. However, no mention is made of the optics used. Furthermore, since all the groups were fired either at 100 or 600, it does not support the converging group theory any more than an optical explanation.

Before this challenge is over, we will fire at least one .50 cal on the shoot-thru target. We've got a lot of groups with the .375, and some with the .408, but we have to do .50 as well.

-Bryan
 
I agree that there are pieces missing from Mac's account. Sadly he's gone, and I have no "juice" with Kelly or Rock to see if they knew anything about the test firing details. Perhaps they'd indulge someone of your stature in the community.
What was striking to me was the sheer volume of shots fired which I would think would negate at least the statistical anomalies introduced by not tracking the same bulllets on its path downrange.

One thing I picked up reading the yarchive'd posts of Gale McMillan is that he was involved in optical manufacturing. I recall years ago he had even produced his own scope. It would be speculation only, but with such experience I would think parallax would have been accounted for in his account.

On a different note, I have a good friend who has steadfastly maintained that he saw a consistent effect at 300 and 600 yards shooting 90gr JLK's out of his AR Service Rifle. I'm trying to convince him to make the trip from Texas to Michigan.

P.S. I was going to offer a trade for my spare copy of Mann books for one of yours. I see I'll have to come up with something else to offer.
 
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Here's the relevant pages out of the NRA's Highpower Series, re: Positive Compensation;



My notes say it was by Creighton Audette, but I'll pull out the book to check that.
p.s. pardon the highlighting. It's from a past effort to share.
 
On a different note, I have a good friend who has steadfastly maintained that he saw a consistent effect at 300 and 600 yards shooting 90gr JLK's out of his AR Service Rifle. I'm trying to convince him to make the trip from Texas to Michigan.

Send him my way.
 
The barrel whip article only shows impacts on a vertical plane. Even if one round was to have higher trajectory than the rest, it would still follow its horizontal deflection.
 
Doc,
Please read read the article I posted as well as the posting of Mr Litz regarding "Positive Compensation". I think we're all in agreement it manifests in the vertical plane only. But the MV differences being compensated for by barrel whip is what I think you're looking for.
Chris.
 
I have always blamed this on parallax because it seems absolutely impossible for bullets to be on different tangents or paths and come back to the same one. I like the idea of the tests and will try them as soon as possible. I quit working up loads for people at 100 yards years ago and went to 200 because I couldn't get the parallax out of some scopes at 100
 
The barrel whip article only shows impacts on a vertical plane. Even if one round was to have higher trajectory than the rest, it would still follow its horizontal deflection.

Doc,
Please read read the article I posted as well as the posting of Mr Litz regarding "Positive Compensation". I think we're all in agreement it manifests in the vertical plane only. But the MV differences being compensated for by barrel whip is what I think you're looking for.
Chris.

I'm not sure that the article in post #90 makes the assumption that the ideal barrel can be positively compensated and indexed to resonate in the vertical plane alone? The article avoids making a definitive statement by introducing a casual observation instead:

Shooters who have attempted to bore sight rifles... has probably found that the point of impact of the bullet in the vertical plane, when the rifle was first fired, was much farther off from the bore sighting than it was in the horizontal plane

Barrel vibration is predominantly in the vertical plane by design (e.g. stock pressure points) or by gravity, but this does not exclude it from 3D vibration in the horizontal plane to some degree.

I've found the effort that golf club fitters go to analyse shaft orientation relatively enlightening when it comes to better understanding light barrel whip, given my ability to learn and resources I have available. Certainly much easier to observe the harmonics. Notice the reductions achieved, but never actual zero orientation.

Example
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Also, if we accept variable muzzle velocity, then Njord will also see fit to play his part in changing the point of impact, predominantly in the horizontal. BC and else being equal of course.

I would argue that the reality is a barrel (horizontal) vibrates 3-dimensionally, but that gravity has a significant effect on increasing the amplitude of the vibrations through the vertical plane, regardless of the natural vibration pattern of the barrel (e.g. pointed vertically). Vertical frequencies are also more likely to be more significant for long thin barrels, than short stiff barrels.

Practically whether we can measure the array of frequencies in 3-D and correlate them to any horizontal dispersion is only useful if we can measure the results on the target. The same applies to the effects of wind with changing velocities between shots for a perfectly tuned positively compensating barrel. I would suggest that for the average fullbore rifle with a positively compensating barrel and current target sizes, the horizontal dispersion would not be a significant consideration. In F-Open it might raise an eyebrow, but probably not until these shooters explore longer, lighter profile barrels in the search for more efficient velocity gains than powder/case size alone.

Can't wait for some LRH discussion on barrel indexing vs. barrel tuners vs. barrel dampeners vs. barrel blocks vs. muzzle breaks vs. front sight tunnels vs. bloop tubes vs. silencers...the 22LR BR shooters might even start subscribing ;)
 
aaronraad,
I'm looking for my book right now so that I can scan in the rest of the article. There's more interesting stuff in there that might shed light on your questions about why a greater manifestation in the vertical plane. I've seen Bart Bobbit say that it was present in the M14 because of the gas port drilled in the 6 o'clock position. Audette(?) talks about multiple modes of vibration in barrels, and such.
 
Bullets don't have brains, or self guidance systems. Which would be required to consistently counter/correct their natural dispersion in flight. There is no ghost.
 
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