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Apex outdoors afterburners performance

Fantastic post, and deserving of a more appreciative response than a desultory single word 'thanks' from the OP.

I am particularly interested in the 300 Savage you have, can you provide more detail? I have a Savage 99F in 300 Savage, that I purchased in too poor of condition to merit restoring, but is functionally serviceable. I put on a Marbles tang sight, and have been considering using it as a truck gun as well. I need to slug the barrel and determine twist rate, but I intend to settle on a solid of some make that will maximize my MPBR. I have not found much data from people using solids in these older rifles. If you happen to also be shooting them in a 99, I'll have a leg up!
If you do happen to try the Afterburner in the 300 Savage, you will want to push it a bit forward out of the case between .030" - .040" more than the stated projection length on our website. This will work just fine and be well within 2.800". The reason is for the incredibly short neck of the 300 Savage, loaded at the stated projection length, the rear boss would be in the case, not contacting the neck. We thought about that cartridge when we designed the front and rear case alignment bosses for our 30 cals. We decided to standardize on the 300 Win Mag as having the shortest neck and not specifically address the 300 Savage due to its age and dwindling popularity, knowing that if the bullet is pushed forward, front and rear case alignment bosses will be in full contact and all is well. A SAAMI spec'd 300 Savage should shoot very well like this. It's amazing to me this early in the launch process, we already have two interests for the Savage specifically, lol. Kind of like we didn't expect the 144gr to be the hottest 30 cal right now either. It's the answer for the Tikkas and Sakos, for sure, but I expected the 153gr to be first followed by the 135gr. Shows you how much I know about market presence. 🤪
 
I'm looking forward to those too, as well as the 338 version. I have a little CZ 527 with an 18" 6.5 Grendel barrel on there that's a good fit for a light weight mono. I also have a 30" 6.5x338 RUM improved to test them on the high end. For the .277, I have a pair of 270x338 RUM improved barrels to try the light .277 Afterburners in. That chambering isn't very well behaved with super light bullets though. But they'll be fun to try!
Yowza, those are going to be screaming out of the barrel! Should prove to be pretty lethal.
 
Did I miss the "minimum expansion velocity" on these bullets?
In the Afterburners specifically, for the 30 cals, which are the only ones released, the minimum recommended is 1650 fps. Below that threshold, while they may work, we are not comfortable with what we're seeing as far as consistency. At 1650 fps, we feel confident in consistent performance. As we progress and get more data for the other sizes, naturally that velocity number will slide slightly up or down for the newer bullets, as each will have its own character, and we will make note of that to make sure our customers know the limits. I suspect some might need slightly more velocity, and definitely some will be even less, potentially substantially less, as planned for the intended cartridges (think 35 Whelen). However, no matter, every Afterburner that gets released needs to open correctly at least as low as 1800 fps. If we find ourselves in a position where that isn't the case as N starts to equal a much larger number, we will redesign that particular bullet to achieve at least 1800 fps min. With everything released today both on and off the website, I don't envision needing more than 1700 fps or so, and I think some will show up well even at 1400-1500 fps, but for all of them, time and numbers will tell the tale. We were happy when we did extensive testing with the 153gr profile that we got 1650 fps with consistency. It was 150 fps added bonus in our opinion.

In reference to the Haymakers, I have no idea the minimum. We were shooting for 1200 fps internally as a goal and had no intention of it being used for subsonic work until yorke-1 was able to get amazing results at only 1050 fps impact velocity. Until this thread, I had no idea that he's continued to have great results below that even. I recommend its upper end at an impact of 2400 fps though, as the bullet begins to break apart substantially and lose its integrity, unless that's the desired result for the shot, of course.
 
Fantastic post, and deserving of a more appreciative response than a desultory single word 'thanks' from the OP.

I am particularly interested in the 300 Savage you have, can you provide more detail? I have a Savage 99F in 300 Savage, that I purchased in too poor of condition to merit restoring, but is functionally serviceable. I put on a Marbles tang sight, and have been considering using it as a truck gun as well. I need to slug the barrel and determine twist rate, but I intend to settle on a solid of some make that will maximize my MPBR. I have not found much data from people using solids in these older rifles. If you happen to also be shooting them in a 99, I'll have a leg up!
Maybe I was raised differently but thanks or thank you is a expression of gratitude. What do suggest?should I sacrifice a first born son or write him a novel? He and I have been having a discussion about this and he asked me to create a post separate for this. So I did and he put the information here for me and I thanked him for doing so. Never seen anyone complain because I thanked someone for giving me information. Seems like on this forum someone is always trying to make something out of nothing. I haven't heard any complaints from him in any of our conversations which have been both polite and professional.
 
I'm shooting them in a 20" Encore barrel, but I've had a few 99s in 300 Savage over the years. I don't remember what the max OAL is in the 99's rotary mag, but it might be a tight fit with the Haymaker in the 300 Savage, but I'm pretty sure my OAL is still under 2.800". The Afterburners will fit without an issue.

Lots of the loads I've tried with the Apex bullets were based on published loads for similar weight Barnes bullets. I'm using H4895 with the 161 Haymaker and H335 with the Afterburners. I've kept the loads in the 300 Savage pretty mild, so I know you could run them hotter if you wanted. I use the 300 Savage as a tuck/backpack gun, so I don't need or want to try and run it hard.
I *think* the 99's max COAL for 300 Savage is 2.6". And I *think* the twist on my barrel is 1/12.
That combination really narrows me down to light for caliber solids, but that still jives with my intent for a handy point&shoot iron sight rifle; the 138gr Afterburner might be the ticket
 
If you do happen to try the Afterburner in the 300 Savage, you will want to push it a bit forward out of the case between .030" - .040" more than the stated projection length on our website. This will work just fine and be well within 2.800". The reason is for the incredibly short neck of the 300 Savage, loaded at the stated projection length, the rear boss would be in the case, not contacting the neck. We thought about that cartridge when we designed the front and rear case alignment bosses for our 30 cals. We decided to standardize on the 300 Win Mag as having the shortest neck and not specifically address the 300 Savage due to its age and dwindling popularity, knowing that if the bullet is pushed forward, front and rear case alignment bosses will be in full contact and all is well. A SAAMI spec'd 300 Savage should shoot very well like this. It's amazing to me this early in the launch process, we already have two interests for the Savage specifically, lol. Kind of like we didn't expect the 144gr to be the hottest 30 cal right now either. It's the answer for the Tikkas and Sakos, for sure, but I expected the 153gr to be first followed by the 135gr. Shows you how much I know about market presence. 🤪
I am doing my best to visualize your explanation; I think the rotary mag limits me to 2.6", which might preclude the Afterburner due to geometry of the short neck coupled with the short COAL? I was looking at twist rates and had not appreciated the limitations imposed by the 99
The Haymaker's 7/8ths length had got my attention, but twist rate may get me. One solution; I'll get a box, and if they don't stabilize I'll just use them in a 300blk or my favorite 16" .308

Thank you!
 
I just wanted to add a bit on some of the other animals yorke-1 was referring to, and thanks for the great post and to everyone that has or will contribute to it. It's you first adopters that really make small, private companies like mine move forward, and I'm extremely grateful. Early in our launch, we were fortunate enough to get a customer that takes more game a year than I will in my lifetime, with some of these being heavy bodied/boned animals. This really helps in the real-world validation process, no doubt, and the data so far is lining up with our predictions and testing. We saw massive trauma accompanied by straight and deep penetration when compared to all other styles of bullets in initial testing, most noticeably in the wet newsprint. We were curious as to how this would translate into real world results, and we're happy to witness alignment between testing and terminal results.

The animals shot thus far by the customer referenced above have been free range cattle that is part of a giving back effort he's doing for his community, very commendable; I take my hat off to him. That's a lot of grunt work processing and hauling those off the mountain. Below are some of the pictures I've received from him on the cattle taken. Most of the time, he's avoiding shots that encounter meat loss, so there are quite a few neck shots and at least one head shot. In most cases, the spine was hit on the neck shots. On one particular animal, he sent it through both shoulder bones broadside to get an understanding of the terminal performance in that scenario. I have layered pictures of that from entry into the center section. I don't have pictures all the way across, but he did verify that it was both shoulder bones and an exit. I know in that particular instance, it was hot, and they had three animals down, and trying desperately to get them processed quickly in the heat, so I'm glad I received any pictures at all.

He's shooting a 300 WSM with the 144gr Afterburner at a muzzle velocity of 3350 fps. From what I've observed from his 507 yard target dialing in for range, I'd guess around a .2 MOA setup, but that's just a visual observation on my part looking at two and three shot clusters as he walked his scope in. I have no idea where he settled in on his true BC yet, and he has the ability to true up out to 1200 yards and further.

Okay enough talk, here are some of the pictures I have of the terminal wounds. Every case, to include the shots not pictured below, resulted in a straight, massive, tubular hole with complete devastation, all with exits. He did find one petal, I think in the double shoulder shot, but lost it prior to finishing processing. In every other case, everything that they were able to notice exited far side. Where appropriate, I'll add his commentary for each picture as well.

This is the first cow shot, commentary always in quotes (2 pics):
"Went out and shot this cow at 235 yards on her shoulder as she was slightly walking away. Broke her spine where it goes low above her heart. Made a huge fist hole and I couldn't find a base or petal nothing but broken bones and devastation. Is this typical of what you folks have experienced?"
View attachment 399259View attachment 399260


Another cow (1 pic):
"Base of neck/high shoulder 416 yds... I hit her spine and it left a monster hole. No base or petals!!"
View attachment 399266


This particular cow is the double shoulder shot cow (5 pics)
"First cow.... 291 yds shoulder shot broadside"
"Under the skin"
View attachment 399274


"Under the first section of meat"
View attachment 399275


"Paddle bone"View attachment 399276


"Under the paddle bone"
View attachment 399277


"Inside under the ribs"
View attachment 399278
Thanks for adding this and yorke too looking forward to getting my hands on some and seeing more results from the field.
 
I am doing my best to visualize your explanation; I think the rotary mag limits me to 2.6", which might preclude the Afterburner due to geometry of the short neck coupled with the short COAL? I was looking at twist rates and had not appreciated the limitations imposed by the 99
The Haymaker's 7/8ths length had got my attention, but twist rate may get me. One solution; I'll get a box, and if they don't stabilize I'll just use them in a 300blk or my favorite 16" .308

Thank you!

I just reached out to a guy who bought one of my old Savage 99s in 300 Savage and had him measure the internal mag length. He said it has an internal length of 2.810". That makes sense since the gun needs to handle the 308 and 358 Win as well. I just measured the COAL of a 161 Haymaker loaded in the 300 Savage and I'm at 2.765". That should fit just fine in the 99's magazine. There's one possible issue resolved!

The twist rate will probably be an issue. I'm pretty sure Savage used a 1:12 for all their 30 caliber barrels. That'll take the Haymaker off the list.

I won't speak for Mark, and he's probably going to cringe when he reads this, but I wouldn't worry too much about changing the seating depth to make the Afterburners work with the short neck on the 300 Savage. I've been shooting the Afterburners seated to a COAL of 2.645" in the 300 Savage and they've been doing well. I can see where you could have runout issues caused by the short neck, but honestly, a model 99 isn't going to be a benchrest gun no matter what you do. LOL I'd grab some of the 135gr Afterburners and give it a go!

These are the 153's loaded in a 300 Blackout, 300 Savage, and the 300 RUM. The projection length is the same for the 135gr version, so this will give you an idea of what you'd see with the 135s. The COAL is actually pretty short. Ignore the ring on loaded 300 Blackout. The seating stem on my dies is terrible and I just haven't had the time or motivation to polish it. It does that to any bullet I seat in the Blackout. Of course, the compressed powder charge doesn't help!
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I'm not sure why the image keeps getting scaled up so big!
 
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