Apex Outdoors - 30 Cal Afterburners Now In Stock!

[codyadams]

I love your concept! However, I would suggest (once you guys are in a position to increase your product line) that to cover the longer range guys (800 yards+, admittedly the minority), you do the same thing, but add a heavier bullet line, for tighter than standard twist rates.

The 153, when compared with some of the other high bc 200+ bullets, including cup and core as well as bullets like the 205 Badlands, falls behind even in velocity from 800-900 and farther out, and is behind in wind drift from the start.

Inside 600-800 yards they seem to do fantastic ballistically, and the difference is not much! But for the group of people that include 800-1200+ yards in their hunting range, a little bit goes a long ways! I have an 8 twist 30 nosler that I would love to try a 180ish grain bullet from you guys, get a G7 of a 180 to .325 or better, fit it for an 8.5-9 twist, and that would be pretty gnarly!

The 153's sound like bad medicine in a .30-06!!

 

[yorke-1]

Congratulations Mark!

Now that you have your first run ready to go, it's time for everyone to start complaining about what you don't have, or what they think you're doing wrong. Let me see if I can hit all the popular topics! LOL

- These are great, but I really want a 200gr .308 bullet that will stabilize in my 1:12" twist 308 Win.

- Why doesn't anyone ever offer a high BC bullet to work in the 219 Zipper? There are like 7 of those rifles still floating around, so you're missing a huge market share......

- If I can't kill it with 150gr Winchester Power Point from my '06, it just doesn't need killing! These fancy bullet are just a fad.

- Those bullets all seem pretty light.....

- Those bullets are way too heavy.

- I bought some old mil surplus pull-down 147gr bullets for like $0.25 each, so yours should only cost $0.45 right?

- Berger is better.

- New stuff is stupid.

- I'm not sure why I don't like whatever you're doing, but I don't like whatever you're doing.

- I'm never going to actually buy your product, but I'm going to post strong opinions about it on the internet because, well, it's the internet.

I think that covers most of the low-hanging fruit for everyone who hates new products. Good luck!


Edit: Codyadams, you posted while I was typing. Don't take anything I said as a jab at you. I'm just joking around!

 

[codyadams]

Edit: Codyadams, you posted while I was typing. Don't take anything I said as a jab at you. I'm just joking around!

Ok, I was wondering, I tried to be reasonable about my comment and specifically mention that it is not an expectation, and the need for a heavier, specialized tighter twist mono bullet is in fact a minority use, as well as mentioning that the current options would be fantastic in many standard twist rifles.

When the 6.5 offerings are available I will likely take a close look at what would be a good option for my 8 twist .260ai, I think a mono design like these with a high bc and speed could be a killer pronghorn load in that gun, I need something to play with that will compete with my 156 Berger load out to a grand!

 

[mcdil]

The timing of that was a bit funny right there. I was wondering too, lol. @codyadams you're thinking is directly in line with our direction. We will get there. I can tell you on BC, with our calculated estimates where we've been pretty spot in to the short range radar G7, we are beating what you're asking for above by a decent margin with our designs released internally. As a side note, I noticed on another thread you mentioned you run a bit tighter twist for better performance than recommended with most monos. You probably can pull off that trend with ours as we list our twists at an SG of 1.5 min. So if we say 1:8", it should work very well on game with that twist as long as the bullet can be launched at our minimum recommended muzzle velocity at that twist rate.

Right now, the intent is to get all seven Afterburners on the website released. At that point, we were going to release some of the other must haves, but I think we will switch course and start with one of our high twist options. Especially amongst this crowd, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Petey308]

The timing of that was a bit funny right there. I was wondering too, lol. @codyadams you're thinking is directly in line with our direction. We will get there. I can tell you on BC, with our calculated estimates where we've been pretty spot in to the short range radar G7, we are beating what you're asking for above by a decent margin with our designs released internally. As a side note, I noticed on another thread you mentioned you run a bit tighter twist for better performance than recommended with most monos. You probably can pull off that trend with ours as we list our twists at an SG of 1.5 min. So if we say 1:8", it should work very well on game with that twist as long as the bullet can be launched at our minimum recommended muzzle velocity at that twist rate.

Right now, the intent is to get all seven Afterburners on the website released. At that point, we were going to release some of the other must haves, but I think we will switch course and start with one of our high twist options. Especially amongst this crowd, it makes a lot of sense.

Sounds like a good plan. Get the options out that will fit the majority first, then work on the options for those with custom setups that can get the most out of less common scenarios. You can't always expect a full product line release when you're just getting going. At least releasing things as they come is nice so you can get some product out there and get good feedback before things get too deep on the production side. Significant changes are easier to make then, if needed lol.

I will say though, that due to the lower density that comes with monos without a dense lead core, and thus being longer grain for grain, an SG of 2.0 has been proven to get the most BC out of such a bullet, vs the 1.5 value for lead core. That extra bit just helps ensure the center of pressure stays up there away from the center of gravity so the bullet has minimal yaw in flight.

I discussed this with Litz a while back. Basically, you can spin a lead core to a higher SG of 1.5, but the effects on increasing any BC is negligible at that point, although it will still increase. Same with monos, after an SG of 2.0, the rate of BC increase is very negligible overall. You just don't want to dip below those figures in order to get the most significant potential out of each bullet type.

That said, the amount of RPMs, and thus the centrifugal forces produced, will play a role in the terminal performance of the bullet. It'll affect how much or even how violently the bullet deforms and comes apart, for sure. For a bullet designed to shed petals, I would think higher centrifugal force would only help with ensuring they do separate, even at lower impact velocities.

 

[codyadams]

Sounds like a good plan. Get the options out that will fit the majority first, then work on the options for those with custom setups that can get the most out of less common scenarios. You can't always expect a full product line release when you're just getting going. At least releasing things as they come is nice so you can get some product out there and get good feedback before things get too deep on the production side. Significant changes are easier to make then, if needed lol.

I will say though, that due to the lower density that comes with monos without a dense lead core, and thus being longer grain for grain, an SG of 2.0 has been proven to get the most BC out of such a bullet, vs the 1.5 value for lead core. That extra bit just helps ensure the center of pressure stays up there away from the center of gravity so the bullet has minimal yaw in flight.

I discussed this with Litz a while back. Basically, you can spin a lead core to a higher SG of 1.5, but the effects on increasing any BC is negligible at that point, although it will still increase. Same with monos, after an SG of 2.0, the rate of BC increase is very negligible overall. You just don't want to dip below those figures in order to get the most significant potential out of each bullet type.

That said, the amount of RPMs, and thus the centrifugal forces produced, will play a role in the terminal performance of the bullet. It'll affect how much or even how violently the bullet deforms and comes apart, for sure. For a bullet designed to shed petals, I would think higher centrifugal force would only help with ensuring they do separate, even at lower impact velocities.

I concur with all statements, specifically focused around terminal performance of monos, I like to be closer to a 2.0 sg. I noticed a small increase even with the 208 LRHT's at extended ranges, approximately .016 G7, when using my labradar for every shot, going directly from a solid 100 yard zero to 960. My estimation is from my 8 twist vs the standard 10.

The timing of that was a bit funny right there. I was wondering too, lol. @codyadams you're thinking is directly in line with our direction. We will get there. I can tell you on BC, with our calculated estimates where we've been pretty spot in to the short range radar G7, we are beating what you're asking for above by a decent margin with our designs released internally. As a side note, I noticed on another thread you mentioned you run a bit tighter twist for better performance than recommended with most monos. You probably can pull off that trend with ours as we list our twists at an SG of 1.5 min. So if we say 1:8", it should work very well on game with that twist as long as the bullet can be launched at our minimum recommended muzzle velocity at that twist rate.

Right now, the intent is to get all seven Afterburners on the website released. At that point, we were going to release some of the other must haves, but I think we will switch course and start with one of our high twist options. Especially amongst this crowd, it makes a lot of sense.

And that sounds like a good business plan, as I stated while people like me are into the tight twist, heavy for caliber mono bullets, I also recognize we are certainly not the main market out there. When you come out with that heavier 30 cal designed for tighter twists, put me at the top of your buyers list, I would love to test them from my 8 twist 30 nosler on Wyoming elk, mule deer, and a pile of goats!

 

[mcdil]

Those are some good points, gents, and it gave me an idea. Right now, for our BCs, when we have the internal ability to test them, we list the velocity band the bullet's G7 was calculated in. I will update that to include the twist rate of the rifle used. That's about as much transparency as we can possibly provide for our BC numbers. That will do two things. For the average hunter that doesn't focus on long range, but would like good performance at the extended ranges for their off-the-shelf mountain rifle platform with a standard Duplex 3x9, the number should provide an accurate assessment for those ranges. Conversely, for the true long range shooters that understand how BC, even when calculated to the G7, can change at differing velocity bands and be influenced by twist rate, at least know where our number came from and can adjust and verify accordingly. A task for this weekend!

 

[Petey308]

Those are some good points, gents, and it gave me an idea. Right now, for our BCs, when we have the internal ability to test them, we list the velocity band the bullet's G7 was calculated in. I will update that to include the twist rate of the rifle used. That's about as much transparency as we can possibly provide for our BC numbers. That will do two things. For the average hunter that doesn't focus on long range, but would like good performance at the extended ranges for their off-the-shelf mountain rifle platform with a standard Duplex 3x9, the number should provide an accurate assessment for those ranges. Conversely, for the true long range shooters that understand how BC, even when calculated to the G7, can change at differing velocity bands and be influenced by twist rate, at least know where our number came from and can adjust and verify accordingly. A task for this weekend!

Sounds great! And for what it's worth, I'm out fire forming brass as we speak for my initial load development for the 135gr Afterburner

 

[Swamplord]

Yeah baby !

These will be about perfect for the Tikka T3 detacheable mags in 300 WSM

Got my bullets last night and went to work STAT ! first thing I saw in the garage was two boxes of ADG 300 WSM brass and here we are, got a die set up dummy loaded up, now doing some data research for powder choices, then it's bang time

300 RUM loading in progress today with Peterson brass , **nope** ..... correction, ADG brass ....

..

 

[Petey308]

Yeah baby !

These will be about perfect for the Tikka T3 detacheable mags in 300 WSM

Got my bullets last night and went to work STAT ! first thing I saw in the garage was two boxes of ADG 300 WSM brass and here we are, got a die set up dummy loaded up, now doing some data research for powder choices, then it's bang time

300 RUM loading in progress today with Peterson brass

..
View attachment 392041

I assume those are the 153gr? I'm excited to see your results!

 

[jessej]

300 RUM loading in progress today with Peterson brass

You had me at RUM

 

[yorke-1]

I've had good luck with Reloader 26 in the 300 RUM with the 153 Afterburner. I'm at 3520 FPS from a 24" barrel with a moderate load.

 

[Swamplord]

Started at 106 gr of LRT and went up to 112.5 in half grain increments, at 109.5 gr bullet started compressing powder with a COAL at 3.636", case gettin pretty full with the 112.5 grains, lol

Hodgdon data shows 112.6 gr of LRT as a max load with a Barnes TSX BT bullet for 3531 fps at 63,900 psi

Gonna go clock em with the Magnetospeed

....

 

[mcdil]

Alright. Website has been updated on the BC values we have calculated to also disclose the twist rate of the rifle shot behind the radar. So, in summary, we list:
1. The observed G7 (G1 where appropriate, i.e. Haymaker) calculated from a fit curve generated on the radar csv plot file
2. The velocity spectrum where the observation took place
3. The twist rate of the rifle doing the shooting

This is about the best we can do in relation to BC. When we have offerings that we don't have the means to shoot, we will leave the BC listed as an estimate. It will be obvious which are which. Luckily, so far, we've gotten pretty good at calculating estimates, when compared to actual, but that may change as we go up and down in caliber, so we shall see.

One thing I failed to mention in relation to gyroscopic stability in the discussion above. We DO NOT subtract the nose or part of the nose when calculating the stability of our Afterburners. Some ballistics calculators allow the ability to account for this with plastic noses, but we choose not to use that functionality on purpose, and the calculation is considerably more conservative as a result. The weight of the nose itself is almost insignificant, and it predominates around the central axis, so any additions to the mass moment of inertia are almost imperceptible. HOWEVER, from an aerodynamic and structural standpoint, the nose is just as prominent as if it were attached permanently to the bullet. We know ours will shoot with excellent stability in flight. Our concern was completely around terminal stability and performance, and we wanted to be very much on the conservative side in that regard. It's the most important attribute of a bullet's performance. All else is secondary, at least in our view.

I guess this was really part of my explanation around twist rate acceptability for Apex Outdoors bullets in the above response. I just did a poor job disclosing all the reasons why I said it. No doubt, BC will still get higher with a tighter twist rate (that was the other part of the discussion), but it is more a luxury than a necessity.