Annealing

[Rflshootr]

So today I just got 300 Lapua Match 223 cases to reform into 20 Tactical. Should I anneal them before starting? Or do Lapua cases come annealed?

Here is an article that will help if you have the dies. I would try 1 case first to see how it comes out. If it is good, then proceed.....if not then anneal.

.20 Tactical | Handloader Magazine

www.handloadermagazine.com

 

[Tommo64]

I myself come under the category of anneal when the brass gets too springy that I have to readjust the die to get shoulder bump or when I start getting splits in the necks. It makes your brass last longer, and we all know how tough it can be to get brass and how expensive it has gotten. Just one example that comes to mind, I shoot both Lapua and Norma 6BR brass. the Norma brass started splitting after just 3 firings. I annealed it and haven't had a problem since. The Lapua has about 15 firings and I haven't had a problem yet.....so I'll keep shooting it until I do. One thing I will mention is that annealing at the intervals that I do, it does screw up the neck tension from where I tuned my load for the first firing, but seems to be fine after that. The next batch I anneal, I'm going to try running them through the sizer twice before loading to see if that makes it better.
I posted this as a piece of information for the folks that didn't actually understand what happens to the brass when you anneal and then resize. The inspection equipment and procedure is top of the line stuff and being a journeyman machinist with metallurgy and heat treating knowledge, I was a bit impressed.
Not many machine shops have a metallurgy department with equipment to check chemical make up of metals or more than a standard Rockwell hardness tester, let alone tensile test equipment or a variety of other test equipment. It used to tick me off to take piece of material from the foundry, make it into a part either on the lathe or the mill, and then watch them stretch it until it broke in half. I worked in a place that had it's own foundry and designed their own proprietary metals for the manufacture of many of the parts we produced. I was also the sole pattern maker for the company's foundry and got to work with the metallurgists fairly often. Not many people have the opportunity to work in such a diverse environment.....anyway the video impressed me a bit.

It was very interesting and informative. I have a fitter/machinist background and have also studied materials technology so I understand a little about work hardening. But it was good to see this in the context of reloading. I learned a little more today, particularly how fast brass work hardens even after one resizing cycle! Thanks for posting.

 

[QuietTexan]

So today I just got 300 Lapua Match 223 cases to reform into 20 Tactical. Should I anneal them before starting? Or do Lapua cases come annealed?

I typically don't anneal when setting the shoulder back like that, if you need to the brass will tell you by not sizing correctly. Better than than annealing and collapsing the shoulders and having to work the brass before you can resize.

I like the sound of the Redding approach after reading about it in the link above. Right now I'm working on a 5.56 to 6mm conversion - I run the 5.56 brass through a small base body die, neck up with a carbide mandrel, then set the shoulders back in an FL sizing die. I get a similar "wrinkle" because the new case has less body taper and the FL die is re-angling the shoulder, maybe an interim neck reduction step would cut down on that.

 

[Donneric]

I typically don't anneal when setting the shoulder back like that, if you need to the brass will tell you by not sizing correctly. Better than than annealing and collapsing the shoulders and having to work the brass before you can resize.

I like the sound of the Redding approach after reading about it in the link above. Right now I'm working on a 5.56 to 6mm conversion - I run the 5.56 brass through a small base body die, neck up with a carbide mandrel, then set the shoulders back in an FL sizing die. I get a similar "wrinkle" because the new case has less body taper and the FL die is re-angling the shoulder, maybe an interim neck reduction step would cut down on that.

Thanks!

 

[Donneric]

Here is an article that will help if you have the dies. I would try 1 case first to see how it comes out. If it is good, then proceed.....if not then anneal.

.20 Tactical | Handloader Magazine

www.handloadermagazine.com

Thank you!

 

[338 dude]

So today I just got 300 Lapua Match 223 cases to reform into 20 Tactical. Should I anneal them before starting? Or do Lapua cases come annealed?

I would, it sure is not gonna hurt anything

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

So today I just got 300 Lapua Match 223 cases to reform into 20 Tactical. Should I anneal them before starting? Or do Lapua cases come annealed?

Lapua does anneal their cases as part of the manufacturing process. Their US technical rep told me this.

 

[Donneric]

There are multiple processes with multiple end goals. This particular company (AMP) specializes in induction annealing with the goal of annealing the case necks and shoulders to just under 100 HV after every firing. Their opinion is that if annealing is used it should be uniform, consistent, and repeatable - if cases are returned to the same state after each firing then sizing should be more consistent, and if sizing is more consistent then grip on the bullet should be more consistent as well. To serve their end goal of consistency and repeatability the annealing process should be done every firing and loading cycle. Success with their method is somewhat predicated on the assumption that a user's sizing and seating processes move brass in a consistent manner and doesn't introduce any irregularities after annealing. A problem with this method is it depends on uniform neck thicknesses, if someone doesn't follow the instructions on fining the correct case to test there can be inconsistencies.

Other methods either use different methods to get to the same goal, or different methods to achieve different goals. There are a lot of options for annealing.


It might start there, but brass hardens at different rates over multiple firing and sizing cycles. Part of AMP's logic is that their machine resets brass to the same point every time no matter what inconsistencies get added during a cycle.

There are counters to that - some guys will anneal only every second or third firing but rely on the brass hardening at a similar rate so that the successive loadings are uniform by lot, if not uniform to the prior loading.

Some people will never anneal and will account for increased hardness over the case life cycle by changing to a smaller bushing in a die.

Some people never anneal at all, never change anything, and get good results. There can be other factors to what makes loads good than just case prep. It all depends on the end-user's goals.

I think that's what gets lost in annealing discussions most times - if two guys have different goals, there are probably good reasons for them to not do the same things. Both can do different things that work better for them.

What units are HMV

There are multiple processes with multiple end goals. This particular company (AMP) specializes in induction annealing with the goal of annealing the case necks and shoulders to just under 100 HV after every firing. Their opinion is that if annealing is used it should be uniform, consistent, and repeatable - if cases are returned to the same state after each firing then sizing should be more consistent, and if sizing is more consistent then grip on the bullet should be more consistent as well. To serve their end goal of consistency and repeatability the annealing process should be done every firing and loading cycle. Success with their method is somewhat predicated on the assumption that a user's sizing and seating processes move brass in a consistent manner and doesn't introduce any irregularities after annealing. A problem with this method is it depends on uniform neck thicknesses, if someone doesn't follow the instructions on fining the correct case to test there can be inconsistencies.

Other methods either use different methods to get to the same goal, or different methods to achieve different goals. There are a lot of options for annealing.


It might start there, but brass hardens at different rates over multiple firing and sizing cycles. Part of AMP's logic is that their machine resets brass to the same point every time no matter what inconsistencies get added during a cycle.

There are counters to that - some guys will anneal only every second or third firing but rely on the brass hardening at a similar rate so that the successive loadings are uniform by lot, if not uniform to the prior loading.

Some people will never anneal and will account for increased hardness over the case life cycle by changing to a smaller bushing in a die.

Some people never anneal at all, never change anything, and get good results. There can be other factors to what makes loads good than just case prep. It all depends on the end-user's goals.

I think that's what gets lost in annealing discussions most times - if two guys have different goals, there are probably good reasons for them to not do the same things. Both can do different things that work better for them.

can you tell me what is 100 HV?

 

[Donneric]

Lapua does anneal their cases as part of the manufacturing process. Their US technical rep told me this.

Thanks

 

[Tommo64]

What units are HMV

can you tell me what is 100 HV?

It represents 100 on the Vickers hardness scale.

Vickers hardness test - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[QuietTexan]

What units are HMV

can you tell me what is 100 HV?

AMP did a series of articles about why they think 100 Vickers Hardness is the correct spec, this is the link to the first in the series that they did:

Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[PA Plumber]

So...I have a propane torch, battery drill and a deep socket to keep the flame from getting too close to the case head.
With this cavalier approach, is annealing doing much without all the tech wizardry to tell me if I'm getting an appropriate energy release to attain the just under 100 softness number?
My guess, if it gives me warm fuzzies, my groups are sub 2 1/2" at 300 yards, and my brass is holding up, keep up the facade?
Or are the warm fuzzies the most important part?

 

[QuietTexan]

Or are the warm fuzzies the most important part?

Little man swallows words

 

[PA Plumber]

Trying to be a Richard about it is definitely the most important part Holding an MOA isn't something to brag about really.

Only took 26 posts for the ****ing contest to begin.

I don't understand...
I spent some time trying to figure out how to anneal on a budget. Now I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle since I don't have a way to test hardness or to be able to tell if I'm able to hold any kind of heat consistency while doing this all "by hand."