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Annealing with lead - process?
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Mike, you are correct about the color change. I would call it a very slight "antiquing". I only see it on a polished case.
I do have a question for you though: are you using an IR thermometer to get the temp of the lead? For whatever reason mine does not like molten lead, but read just fine with the empty pot. I tested it against other thermometers and it worked just fine, but I CANNOT get it to read the molten lead reliably. So I have to go with a regular pot thermometer.
I do have a question for you though: are you using an IR thermometer to get the temp of the lead? For whatever reason mine does not like molten lead, but read just fine with the empty pot. I tested it against other thermometers and it worked just fine, but I CANNOT get it to read the molten lead reliably. So I have to go with a regular pot thermometer.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Some IR thermometers have an emisivity (sp) adjustment that allows accurate reading on reflective objects vs non-reflective or dull objects. The only reason I know is I had to get one to check lead temp. My father in law uses a thermal couple and a digital multi meter and that seems to work real well.
Bigngreen, thanks for the info.
Kind of wondered about that. Alsow wondered if that laser it was bad for the eyes after reflecting since it got me once REAL good as it bounced off of the lead. Then I thought too that I can get through Wal_mart without getting pegged by in the eye by the scanners.
Kind of wondered about that. Alsow wondered if that laser it was bad for the eyes after reflecting since it got me once REAL good as it bounced off of the lead. Then I thought too that I can get through Wal_mart without getting pegged by in the eye by the scanners.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
I'll try & address remarks/questions;
"I'm using a full Lee 20 lb pot and haven't noticed a temperature drop"
This is a good deal for doing multi-cases.
~20 on a wheel as mentioned, would require alot of lead, serious ventilation, and I believe you would have a time with that much oil pooling and burning off(open flaming with that much).
"I was always under the impression that you need to anneal as to relieve work hardened brass to get the same neck tension with each case. Mikecr are you saying that this is not true?"
Brass 'annealing' occurs at way higher temps than stress relieving. You can look it up on the internet.
Actual annealing is a setback as brass loses all springback with it. What folks are trying to do with a 2500deg flamepoint, and deft timing, is heat brass throughout it's thickness to between 450deg and 900deg, without the setback of actual annealing.
Good luck with it.
But dipping provides me with absolute control and consistency.
"when you said "With my pot, the lead will drop ~50deg with each dip. But I use a little more lead than you". Each dip...are you refering to 1 case or 1 dipping session consisting of many pieces of brass?
Per case. Lead on the surface and right near the case will lose energy and try to solidify.
Luckily I have access to an extensive metrology & test equipment cal lab at work, and I validated the accuracy of my molten lead measurement(with a cheap thermocouple w/handheld readout(Omega)) at work. I also used a calibrated thermography camera to watch my temps initially. I wanted to make sure I would not soften brass near the webs with dips to mid-body depth pre-fireforming.
What I found regarding temperatures reached with dipping, was that I had nothing to be concerned about really. My lead melts ~500deg(from impure fishing sinkers). I bump it up enough to prevent any solidifying with case dips, and this was always <650deg. Perfect IMO.
I went as high as 750deg for testing, and this was about the limit using Mobil1. So even use of pure lead would be ok(621deg melting point). Higher temps than this would burn off the oil and lead sticking would ruin cases.
So it would take more efforts to mess this up...
Thermography showed that lead temps on the surface & overall do drop with with EACH dipping(with my pot). So it's better that a pot heater/temp switch is adjustable with a fairly narrow band of control, or use more lead than seemingly needed(I use ~8lbs).
You might find that a pot setting allows some solidification on the lead surface with 1-3dips. Then you wait a couple minutes for the heater to get temps back up, before continuing.
But if you have a really small pot, you might end up needing a very high temp setting to keep lead molten. This would not be desirable IMO.
"I'm using a full Lee 20 lb pot and haven't noticed a temperature drop"
This is a good deal for doing multi-cases.
~20 on a wheel as mentioned, would require alot of lead, serious ventilation, and I believe you would have a time with that much oil pooling and burning off(open flaming with that much).
"I was always under the impression that you need to anneal as to relieve work hardened brass to get the same neck tension with each case. Mikecr are you saying that this is not true?"
Brass 'annealing' occurs at way higher temps than stress relieving. You can look it up on the internet.
Actual annealing is a setback as brass loses all springback with it. What folks are trying to do with a 2500deg flamepoint, and deft timing, is heat brass throughout it's thickness to between 450deg and 900deg, without the setback of actual annealing.
Good luck with it.
But dipping provides me with absolute control and consistency.
"when you said "With my pot, the lead will drop ~50deg with each dip. But I use a little more lead than you". Each dip...are you refering to 1 case or 1 dipping session consisting of many pieces of brass?
Per case. Lead on the surface and right near the case will lose energy and try to solidify.
Luckily I have access to an extensive metrology & test equipment cal lab at work, and I validated the accuracy of my molten lead measurement(with a cheap thermocouple w/handheld readout(Omega)) at work. I also used a calibrated thermography camera to watch my temps initially. I wanted to make sure I would not soften brass near the webs with dips to mid-body depth pre-fireforming.
What I found regarding temperatures reached with dipping, was that I had nothing to be concerned about really. My lead melts ~500deg(from impure fishing sinkers). I bump it up enough to prevent any solidifying with case dips, and this was always <650deg. Perfect IMO.
I went as high as 750deg for testing, and this was about the limit using Mobil1. So even use of pure lead would be ok(621deg melting point). Higher temps than this would burn off the oil and lead sticking would ruin cases.
So it would take more efforts to mess this up...
Thermography showed that lead temps on the surface & overall do drop with with EACH dipping(with my pot). So it's better that a pot heater/temp switch is adjustable with a fairly narrow band of control, or use more lead than seemingly needed(I use ~8lbs).
You might find that a pot setting allows some solidification on the lead surface with 1-3dips. Then you wait a couple minutes for the heater to get temps back up, before continuing.
But if you have a really small pot, you might end up needing a very high temp setting to keep lead molten. This would not be desirable IMO.
See now, Mike, you have been withholding information from us - you never told us how you validated your results. With rocket surgeon equipment (evidently), no less.
Nonetheless, I do have an issue: this morning before work I was seating some bullets in the dipped cases, and had some that were way too loose still. All cases measured .304 ID for a .308 bullet, so I should have had some serious grip. Neck wall thickness was ~.012 - .013 (this was junk Winny brass). What gives? Not dipped long enough?
If I read you correctly, the answer MAY be to drop the temp some (so the oil doesn't smoke off as fast) and hold it in there longer OR get an oil that lasts longer at the current temp. Any other ideas to resolve this issue?
Thanks.
Nonetheless, I do have an issue: this morning before work I was seating some bullets in the dipped cases, and had some that were way too loose still. All cases measured .304 ID for a .308 bullet, so I should have had some serious grip. Neck wall thickness was ~.012 - .013 (this was junk Winny brass). What gives? Not dipped long enough?
If I read you correctly, the answer MAY be to drop the temp some (so the oil doesn't smoke off as fast) and hold it in there longer OR get an oil that lasts longer at the current temp. Any other ideas to resolve this issue?
Thanks.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Dipping your cases longer will only make them more the same(won't hurt).
Did you size the necks after dipping & before seating?
If not, if you sized them pre-dipping then went straight to seating, then that's the issue.
With this you would have relieved the stress of your neck sizing, reducing tension.
You could dip all a bit longer, then neck size & check for consistent seating force. If you want more tension, size again & check it, etc.
Need to get em all the same...
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Gotta give me some details on that. In my mind you just equated Mobil1 with tempilaq.
Are you keeping the case in the lead until the Mobil1 smokes or what? How is it guaranteeing temp range?
Is this another one of your tests results you havent told us yet?
Are you keeping the case in the lead until the Mobil1 smokes or what? How is it guaranteeing temp range?
Is this another one of your tests results you havent told us yet?
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
My basis for--->"Successful use with Mobil1 guarantees the correct temperature range"?
I mentioned here & there that lead melts at high enough temperature, and going too high would cause the oil barrier to burn away, ruining cases as the lead brazes to them(an obvious problem).
And 'too high' looked to me to be near but higher than 750deg. That's just a little too hot even for synthetic oil.
There is not going to be a set timing formula because of all the variance in lead/lead amount/pots/cases/ventilation, etc..
But does that matter?
If you dip very quickly, let's say in/out in 2sec, the brass might not take in full temperature.
The lead would likely solidify around the case, and might even braze to it because the oil barrier would shear at such a rate.
Pretty obvious failure..
If you dip extremely slow, let's say in/out in 1min, the brass would take in full temperature.
As long as your web/casehead are still below 450deg, all is fine.
But If your lead is hot enough, let's say 650deg, the oil would burn off before 1min, and your case would get alot heavier!
Again, pretty obvious failure..
There is no need to dip that long though, and if your oil is burning off in half that time, the lead's too hot.
If you go in/out within 30sec without lead sticking, then you got both the timing and temp needed.
But this is based on Mobil1 as a contaminant, preventing brazing -within it's limits.
I mentioned here & there that lead melts at high enough temperature, and going too high would cause the oil barrier to burn away, ruining cases as the lead brazes to them(an obvious problem).
And 'too high' looked to me to be near but higher than 750deg. That's just a little too hot even for synthetic oil.
There is not going to be a set timing formula because of all the variance in lead/lead amount/pots/cases/ventilation, etc..
But does that matter?
If you dip very quickly, let's say in/out in 2sec, the brass might not take in full temperature.
The lead would likely solidify around the case, and might even braze to it because the oil barrier would shear at such a rate.
Pretty obvious failure..
If you dip extremely slow, let's say in/out in 1min, the brass would take in full temperature.
As long as your web/casehead are still below 450deg, all is fine.
But If your lead is hot enough, let's say 650deg, the oil would burn off before 1min, and your case would get alot heavier!
Again, pretty obvious failure..
There is no need to dip that long though, and if your oil is burning off in half that time, the lead's too hot.
If you go in/out within 30sec without lead sticking, then you got both the timing and temp needed.
But this is based on Mobil1 as a contaminant, preventing brazing -within it's limits.
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Gotcha, much better now.
You are saying, though, that is is fine for the entire case body above the web to climb above 450.
Essentially, the formula is 600-650, case dip for up to 30 seconds, max (before the oil burns off). This I can do. After going through the details this one sentence makes all the sense in the world to me.
Will get back with the details of how it works out for me. I am only depriming and cleaning the case before we go down this path. Sizing is afterward.
You are saying, though, that is is fine for the entire case body above the web to climb above 450.
Essentially, the formula is 600-650, case dip for up to 30 seconds, max (before the oil burns off). This I can do. After going through the details this one sentence makes all the sense in the world to me.
Will get back with the details of how it works out for me. I am only depriming and cleaning the case before we go down this path. Sizing is afterward.
Mikecr, I want to make sure I am I understanding that with the lead at the 600 - 650 degree temp, you can not over heat a case to failure like you surley can with a much hotter torch and since you cannot in the lead, the cases will be more consistant with each other and basiclly the only problem that may exsist from to long of a dip is lead sticking to the case. I believe I am catching on here. interesting. Thanks mike
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Oh you could overheat a case,, you could screw it up,, you could get hurt..
I might out-smart you, but I can't out-dumb you!
Seriously, all I'm suggesting is that it would be difficult to do -and not know it.
If I dipped a little 223 case to mid-body for 30sec, I would be concerned about web temps.
But why would I dip this case for so long? And surely ~15sec worth would be sufficient, given that the lead is heating a small area, inside and out. I don't know that 30sec would hurt without measuring it, But I'd go with 15sec on this case first.
On the flip side, for a x-06 or WSM dipped shoulder deep only, I wouldn't worry at all about going longer.
As far as doing much of the case body above the webs, I haven't had a problem going to mid body. But I don't know that there is any gain in it either. I wouldn't risk overheating a case to do it unless pre-forming a wildcat with some radical shaping. In this case I might want a first shot solid fireforming(as with my 6.5wssm).
