Hi Gary, why do few people ever get anywhere with the 223 WSSM? Thanks for your suggestions of the .224 Vias and Jaybird I will have a look at them. I was originally looking at a 6mm but if I was to run 70grs in a 22 caliber at the same velocity as a 6mm then surely the 22 will have a better bc and be less affected by the wind or am I wrong?
Advice wanted on rifle calibers
- Thread starter Tris
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
yes the heavier 22's will have a better ballistic coefficient. Everybody I knew that tried the .223 WSM was unhappy with accuracy and throat life. Plus cases are often hard to come by. Add to this the fact that it's really no faster than a .224 Jaybird, but uses more powder.
The Jaybird is a round I really want to do. Has the desired .30" long neck with a 35 degree shoulder. But I think this round would be even better in 6mm. The advantage of the 6mm is that you can shoot bullets from 55 or 58 grains to 115 grains. Plus bullets like the 105 grain Amax have a B/C of .50, and the 115 grain from Berger is about .54.
gary
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Tris, your questions are a little confusing, at least to me they are. What is your priority? Shooting a 70 bullet? Flattest cartridge? Flatest to what range? A 22-250 will be very slightly flatter than 6-284 to 300 yds. A 6-284 will be slightly flatter than a 22-250 at 400 yds and it will buck wing a lot better than the 22-250 at any range.
On the lighter end of my rifles, I have a 223, 22-250 and 6-284. All of them are basically for "fun". The 223 and 22-250 are mainly for gophers, prairie dogs and rocks and they can definitely hammer yotes if the opportunity arises.
The 6-284 is also for all the above and it it is heads above the others for being a dog regulator. For a flat shooting, wind bucking, 500 yd yote buster, the 6-284 is way above the 22-250. That is, using the appropriate bullet like a 105 hybrid or a 107 smk.
If your desire is to shoot 70 gr bullet, then by all means shoot a potent 22 cal. As for barrel life, the 6-284 and 22-250 are probably going to be close. the main factors are volume to bore ratio, load pressure and velocity (higher velocity causes great heat friction in the barrel), powder heat index, and rate of fire. There are some other factors, but those are the main ones. No free lunch... you want performance, you will pay.
You can easily figure all this out by doing some searching and using a ballistic calc.
When you say "buying", are you wanting to walk into a store and buy it? If so, the simplest thing to do is buy a 243.
If that sounds boring to you and if you want to build something different, look at a 6mm Creedmoor.
If the 6x47 you are considering is a 6-6.5x47 Lapua, that would be a good choice too.
If a 70 gr bullet is the lightest you are wanting to use, I think it's a poor choice to consider a 22 cal.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
I agree. I know there's a lot of guys who like shooting the lighter bullets and the high velocities and that's fine. With a factory twist of 12-14 you have to shoot the lighter ones and probably won't be able to shoo the 70 gr bullets. I am getting mine re-barreled to an 8" twist to shoot the high BC 80's. But, if your set on shooting the 70's go with the 22-250.
Hi Mark, I'm sorry if my questions seem confusing I am looking to shoot as flat a round as possible out to 500 yards. The reason I was originally thinking of shooting a 70gr bullet is that I was thinking of shooting a 6mm of some description and was of the belief that a 70gr would give me a flat trajectory with enough power to still be able to knock down small deer.
Edd thanks for your advice, I am looking to have a rifle made, I am just not sure of what would be the best caliber so hence asking for advice on here.
Edd thanks for your advice, I am looking to have a rifle made, I am just not sure of what would be the best caliber so hence asking for advice on here.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
Fast twist barrels also have their own issues, as I've came to learn. The big over bore cases can also have their own issues as well. Plus they're a little harder to develop loads. Plus, don't believe the specs that some bullet manufacturers will tell you for the needed barrel twist. Then you decide to shoot a bullet with a B/C in the low to mid point fives. You select a barrel with the needed rate of twist. But later decide to shoot bullets of a dog town in the point three B/C area. Bullets don't group as well because your over stabilizing them. But slowing them down helps, but you want to shoot them fast and flat. And we already know what happens when you try to shoot a high B/C bullet in a barrel with too slow of a twist. Every barrel has a window of bullets it will shoot well.
In this case the O.P. should set down and think first about what he's going to do with the rifle. Is he going to hunt deer or maybe even antelope? Elk or moose? Or is just for varmint shooting. Then you have to consider the ranges your planning to shoot at. 95% of the guys hunting will not be shoot deer at 500+ yards, but an antelope hunter might be.
A basic 22-250 with a nine twist barrel is still done at 500 yards, while the same round in a twelve twist is pretty much done at 400 yards. A 6mm whatever is not going anywhere past 400 yards with a 75 grain bullet, but change over to an 85 grain and we're looking at 500 yards. The 105 Amax will
will do 650 yards, and maybe a little more. The 6mm bullets (heavier versions) compared with the bigger bullets in a .224 have over 20% greater sectional density. The 25 calibers are similar to the 6mm's, but these two diameters usually have heavier jackets. This is better for hunting deer sized game and up. On the otherhand a ground hog won't ever know the difference.
There really is no do it all caliber. The .223 bore is better for dog towns, as it won't beat you up. But when the ranges stretch out the 6mm moves up front. But after a hundred rounds they do get a little old. For coyotes you'll never notice this. If you choice of targets runs from ground hogs out to deer, the 25 is always going to be better even though the 6mm does very well. But of course you could move up to the 6.5's, and seriously gain range and power. A .250AI with a ten twist barrel and a 117 grain bullet will be right at 3000fps, but will still shoot the 75 grain bullets well. That's a little more power than most 6mm's shooting the 105 grain bullet, but will also have a heavier bullet construction.
gary
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Tris, I wouldn't attempt to kill a deer at 500 yds with any 70 grain bullet. A 105 hybrid out of a 6-284 should be able to do it handily. It will also be flatter. There are only two things that affect trajectory, wind drift and TOF. They are velocity and BC. A faster bullet with with a lower BC will be flatter in the short range, but a slower bullet with a higher BC will flatter down range.
Based on what your priorities seem to be, I think the 6-284 shooting 105 hybrids is your ticket. Another good thing about this combo is RL33 works well with it for boosts of 100 fps plus.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
the best commonly available bullet in 24 caliber is probably the 105 Amax, but Berger does a 115 hunting bullet with a very high B/C. Both are plenty good enough for deer at 500 yards. What case you use is your business, but I see little difference between the 6/250 improved and the 6mm-06. A look thru loading manuals will tell you that the .243/6mm Remington capacity are about perfect. The rest simply blow powder down the bore. This even goes for the 6mm Ackley even though it's far less at wasting powder. 44 grains of H4831sc in the 6/250 improved case will get you 3000 fps. So will Retumbo and H1000.
In the 6mm Remington you can reach 3150fps with 45 grains of IMR 4831 (very max), but if you use old and original .257 cases to form 6mm brass you can get another 75 to 100fps (those cases are very rare these days) as they hold a grain and a half more water. The 6mm Improved is maybe a 150fps faster than the normal 6mm, but also uses more powder yet. The 6/284 comes right in there with these rounds, as does the 240 Weatherby. This all fits right into what Ackley often said about the 24 bore. The 6mm was about the max the bore would handle without going into over bore. It's also why the .250AI shoots better than it's supposed to be able to. The .257AI will probably do about 3150fps max with a 115 grain bullet (I mean VERY max). The 25-06 is also right there as well. The .257WBY will get you about 150fps with a minimum of 20 grains more powder (8700). This is a great example of overbore. Yet the 270mag will easily push the 130 grain bullet just as fast (same case) at 3300fps. The 6.5WSM will do about 3250fps with a 140 grain bullet, and shoot the 130 grain bullets another 100fps faster with a heavy load of Magpro. Now Nosler has an Accubond Long Range bullet that's about 130 grains with a .6+ B/C. Calculate that out! Even with an accuracy load of 3150fps (maybe), this is a serious round! I can't see that far in my old age! Of course the 6.5x57AI or AAR will put you right on 3000fps with the same bullet.
What the above shows us is that a certain bore size will only handle just so much powder. Ackley told us that forty years ago! And somebody else told him, I'm sure. A very pointed example here is to compare the little 6BR with a 105 grain bullet. You can easily get 2800fps from it (pretty stiff), and still not have case problems. Some folks are getting 2900fps, and one guy was getting 3000fps (probably a 68K psi load). Then you compare that with the big boys in that bore that are using almost double the powder! The 6BG will do 3000fps with 40 grains of powder, and yet it's about .250" longer than the 6BR, but also with lower pressures. It takes another four grains of powder in the .250 improved case to get there
gary
In the 6mm Remington you can reach 3150fps with 45 grains of IMR 4831 (very max), but if you use old and original .257 cases to form 6mm brass you can get another 75 to 100fps (those cases are very rare these days) as they hold a grain and a half more water. The 6mm Improved is maybe a 150fps faster than the normal 6mm, but also uses more powder yet. The 6/284 comes right in there with these rounds, as does the 240 Weatherby. This all fits right into what Ackley often said about the 24 bore. The 6mm was about the max the bore would handle without going into over bore. It's also why the .250AI shoots better than it's supposed to be able to. The .257AI will probably do about 3150fps max with a 115 grain bullet (I mean VERY max). The 25-06 is also right there as well. The .257WBY will get you about 150fps with a minimum of 20 grains more powder (8700). This is a great example of overbore. Yet the 270mag will easily push the 130 grain bullet just as fast (same case) at 3300fps. The 6.5WSM will do about 3250fps with a 140 grain bullet, and shoot the 130 grain bullets another 100fps faster with a heavy load of Magpro. Now Nosler has an Accubond Long Range bullet that's about 130 grains with a .6+ B/C. Calculate that out! Even with an accuracy load of 3150fps (maybe), this is a serious round! I can't see that far in my old age! Of course the 6.5x57AI or AAR will put you right on 3000fps with the same bullet.
What the above shows us is that a certain bore size will only handle just so much powder. Ackley told us that forty years ago! And somebody else told him, I'm sure. A very pointed example here is to compare the little 6BR with a 105 grain bullet. You can easily get 2800fps from it (pretty stiff), and still not have case problems. Some folks are getting 2900fps, and one guy was getting 3000fps (probably a 68K psi load). Then you compare that with the big boys in that bore that are using almost double the powder! The 6BG will do 3000fps with 40 grains of powder, and yet it's about .250" longer than the 6BR, but also with lower pressures. It takes another four grains of powder in the .250 improved case to get there
gary
Truc
Well-Known Member
Like the post before me I would suggest the 6 BR or even better the 6 dasher, as accuracy is more important than speed at these ranges and the Dasher will do it as it is King at 600 yd competition.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
The 105 Amax is a good bullet but it has a lower BC than the 105 hybrid and 115 VLD. I know the the 105 hybrid is a "target" bullet but I've read some good reports on terminal performance. It has the same BC as the heavier 115 VLD which means it can be fired with an MV of about 200 fps faster than the 115 with same BC so it will be flatter and buck wind slightly better.
I agree that that cartridges like the 6 BR and 6x47 Lapua are great accuracy chamberings but the 6-284 can be extremely accurate as well n a well built rifle. If the OP was looking for a competition rifle for 500 yd shooting, they would be excellent choices.
But the OP is looking for a "flat shooting" to 500 yds to shoot coyotes and deer with, basically a field/hunting. The 6-284 shooting 105 hybrids @ 3500 fps is a perfect fit for that.
jakelly
Well-Known Member
Check out the GAP 6mm crusader, 6mm SLR, or even a 22 Creedmoor or 22x47
B23
Well-Known Member
I would add my vote to the 6-284 list.
A 6-284 is just so darn easy I'm not sure how it can even be called a wildcat anymore. My pops has a beautiful full custom 6-06ai that shoots the 105's very well but there is no way I would go thru that much work for such a little gain over the 6-284.
A 6-284 is just so darn easy I'm not sure how it can even be called a wildcat anymore. My pops has a beautiful full custom 6-06ai that shoots the 105's very well but there is no way I would go thru that much work for such a little gain over the 6-284.
