Access to public vs private land for hunting? Beginning of the end?

[yobuck]

I think your right about more people hunting private property without question, but there are many reasons a lot of them you mentioned . Now things are probably much the same in many states, but situations may vary some also I am in PA and many feel the the wildlife commission has left the deer heard deplete so low that there are to few on public land to even bother hunting anymore and the license sales show a steady decline and very few new hunters are coming on with nothing left to hunt ! I have to agree that the population of deer on many public lands should be called a non-huntable population it is so low, I have walked long distances on some of the public lands when there is snow cover looking for new and better places to hunt deer and maybe see a deer track or two sometimes none, but many coyote tracks ! This has led hunters to lease ground and set their own rules for the deer management that is used on them and their are others that knock on doors to get access to private lands to hunt! And yes I believe that in the not so long of the future that if you don't belong to a hunting club or own your own land or have access to private land to hunt deer in PA your deer hunting is all but gone! There are some places that have a few more deer than others but the hunters will migrate to them and that area's deer population will become few also ! These things along with some of those you have mentioned are hurting our hunting traditions ! Right now in PA I don't think there are enough deer in many areas to begin to over browse an area ! But land loss is a big issue I think everywhere ! New roads and housing developments, and shopping malls, new factories and people buying up private land and in PA the natural gas companies have butchered many thousands of acres with gas well pads, and pipelines ! The more the human population expands the more of the items mentioned are going to be needed and the population is increasing faster each year ! Enjoy the the great outdoors and hunting while you have the chance ! Probably 15 to 20 years ago I went to one of the northern counties where I used to hunt rabbits with my family many years ago, it was always full of rabbits and using a dog only slowed you down ! I turned of the major highway and down a couple back roads and then realized that I had gone by the area that we used to hunt, so i turned around and went back, and I came to the same conclusion as I did going the other way, so I turned around again and this time went very slow looking for more details that would remind me as to where the spot was ! Finally I stopped and may have even gotten a few tears in my eyes, the brushy hillside that I once hunted rabbits with my father and two brothers was now grass, houses and driveways ! So the habitat is shrinking at an alarming rate for all wildlife !

Well I was born in SE PA, and lived there for 64 years before retiring to Fl. I still drive 1200 miles each way to our camp in NC PA however every year.
This past season was my 72nd hunting deer in PA.
Bucks co, where I lived and worked has of coarse seen the development of much of the farms, and in the lower part almost all of them. Ditto with other counties in the more populated areas.
When I started hunting in 1947, the first place my father took me was about 20 miles north of Williamsport in Lycoming co. I will never forget the long ride in a car with no heat over the 2 lane roads taking us thru every little town along the way.
I remember well also the very place we went on my very first day. I can no longer walk to that spot, but I knew a dirt road went up the mountain side across the valley. So on my 70th anniversary I decided to revisit that area and at least look over across the valley to that spot.
Mind you now for the past 65 years ive been hunting further north in Cameron Co. What I found was that the area was for the most part unchanged.
Some new camps and houses with some occupying the same spot as the old ones I remembered.
I spent about 2 hours riding around the area before leaving. What surprised me was that even though it is very close to a major town there were very few hunters on opening day. From there I headed toward rt 15 which is now a divided 4 lane highway and headed north to Liberty. From there I picked up rt 414, headed west and went all the way to Slate Run. There was very little traffic along that road thru some of the very best area PA has for deer hunting. Very few cars parked along the way also as a result of hunter activity. Most of the many camps along the road were empty, no signs of anyone there by way of vehicles or smoke from chimneys.
I stopped at a well known place in Slate Run for lunch, and during the approximately 1 hour I was there, nobody else was. I even joked about it by asking if I had my dates mixed up.
From there I went up a few dirt roads that took me past a location I knew a good friend would be hunting from. Again I couldn't walk up to where they were for a visit, so I just tapped the horn, waived at them and drove on. They took 2 bucks that day and 4 for the week.
I drove the whole loop on the West Rim Canyon road where long range PA deer hunting has its very roots, and ended up in the village of Blackwell back down on rt 414. Again, almost no traffic or hunters the whole way except for one l/r group at one location, not counting my friend.
I ate dinner at the Black Forest Inn on rt 44, and again the place was almost empty. Id say you could have picked the room you wanted on the first day of buck. All in all a very surprising day and experience for me considering it was once held up to be a sacred day in PA.
Mind you now, I was not totally unaware that hunter numbers were falling off based on what I had been seeing even in our own group, and in the area I hunt. But not to the degree I saw that day.
Years back, and even as recent as say 20 years back you could just ride around a see lots of deer standing in fields and such, especially at the best times of day. You can no longer do that, meaning you still can, but chances are you wont see many deer. And you know what? that means there aren't any to many hunters. Used to be we might see 25 or more deer on a good day while glassing from one of our spots.
We don't see them today in nearly those numbers.
Fact is there are days you might see none at all.
But fact also is that the nice buck percentage is much higher than ever in my lifetime, and if you get out there and hunt you will have an excellent chance of getting one.
But if you just want to sit on your butt and complain about the PGC, and their not allowing Sunday hunting, or allowing the use or ARs, for the weekends you choose to hunt, and the list goes on, then you probably wont.
And by the way, just in case some forgot, there is about 6 million acres of open public land to walk around on without asking permission from anybody.
The day long trip I just described to me right thru much of it.
Yes we do have a problem, and we need look no further than a mirror to find it, at least in PA.

 

[tmmcampbell]

I don't work for the timber industry and never did. With that stated, I'm curious why you think the companies should loose "tax breaks" if they charge a trespass fee? They cut trees like we cut grass. It's their stuff.

I don't get a tax break for cutting my grass. Why should they get one for cutting trees?

 

[Rich Coyle]

I don't get a tax break for cutting my grass. Why should they get one for cutting trees?

Great argument.

 

[Ndfarmer]

I don't think they would need a tax break if the government wouldn't be holding them back. Let them log of the areas (responsibly) that need it and do proper reclamation. Forest would better off instead of letting forest fires destroy everything. Country better off, more jobs, etc.

 

[imyourhuckleberry]

Being from Texas, I have no experience with public land. Everything is private, and like KyCarl, I don't allow hunting on my land. I used to, but a guy can only take so much. The hunters around here only want something for free, and have no respect for your property. I've experienced fences being destroyed, gates left open for cattle to get out on major public highways or for two separate groups to get mixed and needing sorted, trash galore, ruts left the mud when they had no business driving in in the first place. I could go on ad nauseum.

Bird hunters leave piles of spent shells. You know, that plastic is still around years later for cattle to pick up, chew, and choke on. People ask to hunt hogs and are told no deer hunting, then shoot the buck you've watched grow from a baby into a mature 12 point.


It's just not worth it to me. The careless action of hunters, in the process of entertaining themselves, doubles my workload of trying to make a living. So now when I get a phone call or a knock on my door, the answer is a quick and resounding NO. I hate to be that way, but it's the world we live in.

Everything what you say is so true. I hunted many years with my grandparents and father as a child, and than when I was finally was stationed in Texas I went hunting with my brothers and their friend on private lands with permits. I only hunted a couple of years with them because they had no respect for the land or the owners. They would drink their soft drinks and throw the cans out of the truck and trash. I got on their behinds the whole time as to how little respect they had for the land and nature and the owners. It was pretty disgusting to see this from my own brothers. The worst part is they were passing on this type of behavior to my nieces and nephews. It has been more than 10 years since I have hunted with them in West Texas. Just sad that I cannot enjoy this because they don't see the harm in their actions. My grandparents and parents taught us better.
One of my brother got upset with me because I back handed one of my nephews for not listening to me. He did not want to pickup the sandwich bag from the ground when I had asked him to because it was "not his". My grandparents always taught me to bring out more trash than you bring in, and I live by that motto every time I go to the beach as well.

 

[tmmcampbell]

I agree with you. Government restrictions with no thought is throttling America. But that doesn't mean they should take it out on sportsmen. So they want to lock it up screw them. They can pay the same property tax that I do.

 

[Buck Buster]

Well I was born in SE PA, and lived there for 64 years before retiring to Fl. I still drive 1200 miles each way to our camp in NC PA however every year.
This past season was my 72nd hunting deer in PA.
Bucks co, where I lived and worked has of coarse seen the development of much of the farms, and in the lower part almost all of them. Ditto with other counties in the more populated areas.
When I started hunting in 1947, the first place my father took me was about 20 miles north of Williamsport in Lycoming co. I will never forget the long ride in a car with no heat over the 2 lane roads taking us thru every little town along the way.
I remember well also the very place we went on my very first day. I can no longer walk to that spot, but I knew a dirt road went up the mountain side across the valley. So on my 70th anniversary I decided to revisit that area and at least look over across the valley to that spot.
Mind you now for the past 65 years ive been hunting further north in Cameron Co. What I found was that the area was for the most part unchanged.
Some new camps and houses with some occupying the same spot as the old ones I remembered.
I spent about 2 hours riding around the area before leaving. What surprised me was that even though it is very close to a major town there were very few hunters on opening day. From there I headed toward rt 15 which is now a divided 4 lane highway and headed north to Liberty. From there I picked up rt 414, headed west and went all the way to Slate Run. There was very little traffic along that road thru some of the very best area PA has for deer hunting. Very few cars parked along the way also as a result of hunter activity. Most of the many camps along the road were empty, no signs of anyone there by way of vehicles or smoke from chimneys.
I stopped at a well known place in Slate Run for lunch, and during the approximately 1 hour I was there, nobody else was. I even joked about it by asking if I had my dates mixed up.
From there I went up a few dirt roads that took me past a location I knew a good friend would be hunting from. Again I couldn't walk up to where they were for a visit, so I just tapped the horn, waived at them and drove on. They took 2 bucks that day and 4 for the week.
I drove the whole loop on the West Rim Canyon road where long range PA deer hunting has its very roots, and ended up in the village of Blackwell back down on rt 414. Again, almost no traffic or hunters the whole way except for one l/r group at one location, not counting my friend.
I ate dinner at the Black Forest Inn on rt 44, and again the place was almost empty. Id say you could have picked the room you wanted on the first day of buck. All in all a very surprising day and experience for me considering it was once held up to be a sacred day in PA.
Mind you now, I was not totally unaware that hunter numbers were falling off based on what I had been seeing even in our own group, and in the area I hunt. But not to the degree I saw that day.
Years back, and even as recent as say 20 years back you could just ride around a see lots of deer standing in fields and such, especially at the best times of day. You can no longer do that, meaning you still can, but chances are you wont see many deer. And you know what? that means there aren't any to many hunters. Used to be we might see 25 or more deer on a good day while glassing from one of our spots.
We don't see them today in nearly those numbers.
Fact is there are days you might see none at all.
But fact also is that the nice buck percentage is much higher than ever in my lifetime, and if you get out there and hunt you will have an excellent chance of getting one.
But if you just want to sit on your butt and complain about the PGC, and their not allowing Sunday hunting, or allowing the use or ARs, for the weekends you choose to hunt, and the list goes on, then you probably wont.
And by the way, just in case some forgot, there is about 6 million acres of open public land to walk around on without asking permission from anybody.
The day long trip I just described to me right thru much of it.
Yes we do have a problem, and we need look no further than a mirror to find it, at least in PA.

Don'tb know what day of the season you took your drive, but I would say it was after the third day of the season, that seems to be when most of the camps that even hunt anymore leave ! Many of them leaving have no deer or very few for their efforts and there are lest deer in many of the state forest area's each year due to the PGC and the forest commission issuing DMAP tags for state forests that the deer population has already been taken below what I would call a huntable population ! You can blame the hunters if you want, they are the ones that pulled the triggers that killed all the deer ! But let me tell you one thing, doe tags are to hunters as drugs are to a druggie, if they can get them they will! That being said they have to stop the flow of drugs to stop people from using them ! The same is true with doe tags,if the wildlife commissions sell them, hunters will buy them ! therefore the state has got to stop or drastically lower the doe tags and DMAP permits that they issue ! As far as getting out and hunting I hunt very hard and I saw one legal buck this year in six weeks of archery season and very few deer, and I hunted mostly state land. I hunted two weeks of rifle season and only saw one legal buck and that was the last day on private property and when I saw it it was chasing a doe across a power line and stopped I got on it and could see houses in the distance behind it and never fired a shot at it ! I hunted the head end of Ramsey the first day of rifle season and didn't hear more than 10 shots that were all probably over a mile from me ! I hunted that area most of the first week, and would check the parking areas where other hunters park to go hunting, this is mostly a DMAP area also , meaning does may also be shot the first week of rifle season ! None of the parking areas ever had any blood or signs that a deer was killed, no cart tracks even in the snow that we had ! The same thing was evident where I hunted on the Beech Creek mountain area, no blood or signs of any deer being shot ! I probably never heard more than another 12 to 15 shots all season after the first day ! This was by far my worst ever overall season deer hunting ! I am getting older but I still walk long distances at times still hunting and I see very few tracks compared to earlier years ! They aren't there in any kind of numbers unless your on private property or very close to it ! I was very lucky to kill a small six point in muzzleloader season and I believe he is the very same single legal buck I passed on in archery season, this was on the opposite side of the mountain that I saw him on in archery season and this was private property that he was probably taking refuge in ! Again I can still cover a lot of ground and do hunting and scouting and I can see what has happened, I worked for the PGC for 25 years, the pick is of me posting a beaver dam. I complained when they were only having 2 and three days of doe season and kept raising the # of doe tags and letting you kill more than one doe, I could see the number of deer dropping then ! So when they adopted Gary Alt's if it's brown it's down, I handed in my uniform and quite ! I took the pledge as a game protector NOT an EXTERMINATOR ! I could not be a part of that organization any longer knowing that it would come to what it has ! The late great deer hunting state Pennsylvania !

 

[ATH]

I've had good luck with public out west as long as I go places too difficult for most people to get to. In WY we have a nice spot for antelope, they're not trophies, but we walk 1.5 miles in and that's far enough NOBODY goes in there.

Other than those occasions I have no use for public. Went with a mule deer unit in WY last year with limited access...but all of it was easy to walk into...and we got there the second day of the season and it was like a war zone. On a couple sections of land we found half herds of antelope massacred, with a few left behind easily visible...guess they liked shooting them but didn't want to clean them.

If I owned private I wouldn't want to let unvetted people on either.

I have 15 acres at home, with some luck I can take a deer here. I've had a decade of good access through a relative to land (600 acres), but they're getting a bit odd about it, and with my kids getting old enough they may want to start hunting I need options. I've been saving up and will probably buy 20-50 acres this year.

 

[John C.]

I am a relatively new comer to the western hunting game (about 9 years), and I have even seen people in places that I used to have to myself. I am in great shape so hiking is never an issue, but with all the new phone apps and internet sites that show things (i.e. access points) that you used to have to research or get told about, anyone can now easily find it. I have to admit that I use those resources to my advantage and when I do run into some people, when they ask how I got there as they have been hunting there for years and rarely, if ever, see anyone else in that area, I usually say that I found it by looking at aerials and playing on apps like huntonyx.
I feel that the quality of public land hunting is going to go down because of these tools, and how the average slob hunter is misrepresenting us to private land owners. I like to think that I am not part of the later, but know that I have been part of the first one since I am sure the people I ran into in the Frank Church Wilderness with mules and a wall tent camp were not excited that I discovered "their" honey hole

 

[yobuck]

Don'tb know what day of the season you took your drive, but I would say it was after the third day of the season, that seems to be when most of the camps that even hunt anymore leave ! Many of them leaving have no deer or very few for their efforts and there are lest deer in many of the state forest area's each year due to the PGC and the forest commission issuing DMAP tags for state forests that the deer population has already been taken below what I would call a huntable population ! You can blame the hunters if you want, they are the ones that pulled the triggers that killed all the deer ! But let me tell you one thing, doe tags are to hunters as drugs are to a druggie, if they can get them they will! That being said they have to stop the flow of drugs to stop people from using them ! The same is true with doe tags,if the wildlife commissions sell them, hunters will buy them ! therefore the state has got to stop or drastically lower the doe tags and DMAP permits that they issue ! As far as getting out and hunting I hunt very hard and I saw one legal buck this year in six weeks of archery season and very few deer, and I hunted mostly state land. I hunted two weeks of rifle season and only saw one legal buck and that was the last day on private property and when I saw it it was chasing a doe across a power line and stopped I got on it and could see houses in the distance behind it and never fired a shot at it ! I hunted the head end of Ramsey the first day of rifle season and didn't hear more than 10 shots that were all probably over a mile from me ! I hunted that area most of the first week, and would check the parking areas where other hunters park to go hunting, this is mostly a DMAP area also , meaning does may also be shot the first week of rifle season ! None of the parking areas ever had any blood or signs that a deer was killed, no cart tracks even in the snow that we had ! The same thing was evident where I hunted on the Beech Creek mountain area, no blood or signs of any deer being shot ! I probably never heard more than another 12 to 15 shots all season after the first day ! This was by far my worst ever overall season deer hunting ! I am getting older but I still walk long distances at times still hunting and I see very few tracks compared to earlier years ! They aren't there in any kind of numbers unless your on private property or very close to it ! I was very lucky to kill a small six point in muzzleloader season and I believe he is the very same single legal buck I passed on in archery season, this was on the opposite side of the mountain that I saw him on in archery season and this was private property that he was probably taking refuge in ! Again I can still cover a lot of ground and do hunting and scouting and I can see what has happened, I worked for the PGC for 25 years, the pick is of me posting a beaver dam. I complained when they were only having 2 and three days of doe season and kept raising the # of doe tags and letting you kill more than one doe, I could see the number of deer dropping then ! So when they adopted Gary Alt's if it's brown it's down, I handed in my uniform and quite ! I took the pledge as a game protector NOT an EXTERMINATOR ! I could not be a part of that organization any longer knowing that it would come to what it has ! The late great deer hunting state Pennsylvania !

ACTUALLY, I believe I mentioned it being "the first day" several times. There is no doubt that the DCNR would like most of the deer gone because they are in the lumber business, meaning the selling of our trees. And yes the truck loads of people shooting doe with the DCNR issued tags by and large don't give a rats butt about the deer. Next year they will be hunting for them someplace else, wherever they can get tags.
But fact remains there are still pretty good numbers out there.
Take a spotlite out some night and surprise yourself.
The main problem is that it's no longer easy, along with there being other more preferred ways for many to use their vacation time.
Which is the main reason behind all the yelling over a Saturday opener and Sunday hunting.

 

[Buck Buster]

ACTUALLY, I believe I mentioned it being "the first day" several times. There is no doubt that the DCNR would like most of the deer gone because they are in the lumber business, meaning the selling of our trees. And yes the truck loads of people shooting doe with the DCNR issued tags by and large don't give a rats butt about the deer. Next year they will be hunting for them someplace else, wherever they can get tags.
But fact remains there are still pretty good numbers out there.
Take a spotlite out some night and surprise yourself.
The main problem is that it's no longer easy, along with there being other more preferred ways for many to use their vacation time.
Which is the main reason behind all the yelling over a Saturday opener and Sunday hunting.

The PGC is big into lumbering too, when I worked for them I attended a weekend training at Lock Haven University ! At that time they said that they ( PGC ) wanted to harvest 1% of the PGC owned timber each year so every 100 years they can start all over again ! The deer numbers continue to be less every year on public land, and there is as I said more deer in some places and one of those places are the steep slopes that the long range hunters look onto, not many people venture onto them, and the crews are about a thing of the past so the steep sides should have a few more deer on them, in fact I feel even when crews were in good numbers the side hills had more deer on them, and even more after season began as the crews would chase many deer onto them !Another thing that was NOT a factor when we had a lot of deer, is the COYOTE, they did not exist in PA back in the 60's and early 70's My brother and I were the first I know of that trapped coyotes in Clinton County and the surrounding areas ! Now they are everywhere in large numbers ! The PGC has said they don't have much effect on the deer herd and that bears kill more fawns then coyotes do ! Let me tell you something, I don't remember EVER seeing deer hair in bear dung, and I don't remember EVER NOT seeing it in coyote dung ! The coyotes are hard on our deer population , not so much on adult deer unless they are crippled or there is a weather condition where the deer sing into the sow and the coyotes run on top of it, this can be a real problem ! Not this past flintlock season but last years I saw where coyotes started an attack on a deer and the fight came down onto an old logging road and down it for maybe 15 yards then below it for about 20 or 30 yards ! It looked like a pack had caught this deer and literally ate it alive ! There was blood the whole distance that the fight lasted and all that was left were bones and few pieces of the insides ! I have pics of it but I have never been able to get any pics on here . And I have spotlighted and that only confirms my quote that there are many more deer on private lands and near them than there are on the state owned lands ! Like you said the average size bucks are larger with antler restrictions, but some areas that have not so good of genes the antler restrictions should not be in place ! What I have noticed is that many of your bucks are getting a trait where they have no brow tines ! This is genetics ! I rattled an 18" buck in this year the last week of archery season on state land, he caught me as I was hanging my antlers up, so I froze, he stood there a couple minutes they lowly walked behind some small pine I hung up the antlers and grabbed bed my bow. Next time I saw him he was walking away, so I hung up the bow and grabbed my binoculars to look him over ! He had a huge Y on the left side and not a point on his left just a long main beam ! An 18 inch 3 point ! Most anyone seeing this buck running through the woods would have been throwing lead at it and that brigs up another issue the passing of semi auto rifles, a lot of hunters aren't careful watching what is beyond the deer they are shooting at now, like I said I passed on a small eight point the last day of his past deer season because I could see houses beyond the deer in a great distance, many guys would have shot, and now I feel those type of hunters in the woods can only lead to more hunting accidents with the passing of this law. Just one last word on spotlighting, we always take about the same trip when spotlighting and in the mid 60's we would see 150 to 200 deer a night the same trip now you will be lucky to count 25 or 30 ! Go to the private farm country that ISN"T filled with Amish and you could see that many in one field on a good night ! The regulations that the PGC made with Gary Alt led to the posting of a lot of properties, because they wanted to have deer not just hunters on their property ! If they make Sunday hunting legal that will surly close more land to hunters !

 

[Buck Buster]

I've had good luck with public out west as long as I go places too difficult for most people to get to. In WY we have a nice spot for antelope, they're not trophies, but we walk 1.5 miles in and that's far enough NOBODY goes in there.

Other than those occasions I have no use for public. Went with a mule deer unit in WY last year with limited access...but all of it was easy to walk into...and we got there the second day of the season and it was like a war zone. On a couple sections of land we found half herds of antelope massacred, with a few left behind easily visible...guess they liked shooting them but didn't want to clean them.

If I owned private I wouldn't want to let unvetted people on either.

I have 15 acres at home, with some luck I can take a deer here. I've had a decade of good access through a relative to land (600 acres), but they're getting a bit odd about it, and with my kids getting old enough they may want to start hunting I need options. I've been saving up and will probably buy 20-50 acres this year.

PA is probably still in the top 3 states as far as the number of hunters it has, this could make a big difference compared to the western states and the number of hunters and also there may be more public land in some of the western states, those two things would have to be checked and then the length of deer seasons each have ! In PA you can hunt deer for about a month and a half all seasons totaled ! PA just gained another Saturday in rifle season for next year !

 

[yobuck]

Buck Buster, if there is food such as acorns on the sidehills, there will as a rule be deer found there also. Otherwise they will be found where ever the food source is.
The lack of hunters has had a large impact on glassing the side hills in recent years. By and large traditional type hunters in PA tend to get to the location they choose early, then just sit for a few hours. When they get up and start moving about is as a rule when deer move off the easier hunted flat areas on the tops and down over onto the sidehills. Without hunters in the woods that dosent happen, and the deer will just lay there till they are ready to get up and move. So we need to have both food on the sidehills and hunter pressure in the woods to make it work well.
The food situation can change in given areas year to year, so that can create problems for those who always hunt from just one good location, every day, year after year. There is little doubt that those old school methods of long range hunting are no longer working as well in PA. And there is also no doubt that many of us are no longer in the physical condition to do much about it. But those who are, and who will, are still doing very well.

 

[Deleted member 107796]

I don't get a tax break for cutting my grass. Why should they get one for cutting trees?

If your grass land was on national forest, as I believe this land was initially NF and then given to this company, then you should get a tax break. The problem always comes from commercializing national forest. Never should have happened and Teddy would be rolling in his grave to find out how much this happens.