Absolute Hammer's 7mm mag......Strange result

If you pushed the bullet forward until it stopped, you were likely hitting the driving bands on the body of the bullet. One of the secrets of the Absolutes and their speed is the modified ogive design of the bullet. On most bullets, the ogive gets to caliber diameter much further down the bullet toward the nose. The earlier engraving contributes to variations in BC from barrel to barrel and rifle to rifle. The design of the Absolute was an attempt to reduce this BC variation from rifle to rifle. The amount of increase in speed obtainable was somewhat of a surprise and very pleasant to Steve and Brian. With less bullet engraving the lands plus the parabolic drag reduction bands, Absolutes frequently achieve 200+ fps increase over standard construction bullets of like weight.

It would be good to read all of the post on "Introducing the Absolute Hammer." A full description of this bullet design and explanation of reloading quirks can be found there. It's a long post, but should be required reading for anyone attempting to load either regular Hammers or certainly the Absolute Hammers. These bullets do not behave like traditional bullets and require different loading techniques.

Regarding seating depth, many/most people seat the bullets so the base of the bullet (intersection of the body and boat tail) is at the bottom of the case neck. Once seated there, the only variable is powder charge. Hammers don't exhibit much preference to seating depth like cup and core bullets can.

We don't have data for a 7 mag and Deadblow Hammers. The SAUM is closest in capacity. R26 gave slightly more velocity in that cartridge with your bullet weight. We do have a data sheet on the 2nd post in the thread Absolute Hammer Load Data- I assume you are familiar with it?

I talked with Steve a while back, and discussed with him my experience with a different monolithic bullet that had driving bands. I asked him what he thought of the idea the manufacturer of that bullet had laid on me, which was to use a powder that is a little bit faster than what you might gravitate to from looking at the loading data. He said that this is a good idea with the Hammers, and also to use magnum primers. I told him that I was working with the 280 Remington ( standard, not AI ) and was planning on using either H4350 or H4831. He said to go with the H4350, and a magnum primer. You may be in the same boat with your Re23 vs. Re26 and the 7mm Magnum. The slightly faster powder will get the bullet moving a bit more quickly, which is what Steve told me these bullets like.
 
Over my pressure trace II, any jump in velocity above and beyond 100fps coincided with excessive pressure except in ONE instance.
Loading for my 25-300WSM, due to no load data available, we extrapolated 257 Weatherby data, but started lower than normal, this resulted in a spread of 4 grains of powder increase of 40fps per grain, then a 200fps jump and a climb of 20,000psi which brought that load up to 58,000psi.
The following increases in powder per grain on velocity tracked at around 40psi also until max was reached.
I am dubious that that load of yours increasing 132fps is going to be a long time venture. I would load the same case several times and see if pockets expand before I settled on that. A flat spot like you describe is often an over pressure situation and NOT a node.

Cheers.
 
I talked with Steve a while back, and discussed with him my experience with a different monolithic bullet that had driving bands. I asked him what he thought of the idea the manufacturer of that bullet had laid on me, which was to use a powder that is a little bit faster than what you might gravitate to from looking at the loading data. He said that this is a good idea with the Hammers, and also to use magnum primers. I told him that I was working with the 280 Remington ( standard, not AI ) and was planning on using either H4350 or H4831. He said to go with the H4350, and a magnum primer. You may be in the same boat with your Re23 vs. Re26 and the 7mm Magnum. The slightly faster powder will get the bullet moving a bit more quickly, which is what Steve told me these bullets like.
That's SOP with the HH's, SH's and so on but the AH"s are an entirely different Kettle of Fish
 
Over my pressure trace II, any jump in velocity above and beyond 100fps coincided with excessive pressure except in ONE instance.
Loading for my 25-300WSM, due to no load data available, we extrapolated 257 Weatherby data, but started lower than normal, this resulted in a spread of 4 grains of powder increase of 40fps per grain, then a 200fps jump and a climb of 20,000psi which brought that load up to 58,000psi.
The following increases in powder per grain on velocity tracked at around 40psi also until max was reached.
I am dubious that that load of yours increasing 132fps is going to be a long time venture. I would load the same case several times and see if pockets expand before I settled on that. A flat spot like you describe is often an over pressure situation and NOT a node.

Cheers.
Yep, that huge jump in speed shocked me. It was a warning shot over the bow. Those increases make me think of being on a razor edge of "kablooey". I follow very closely all the inputs on the Absolute. It's an awesome bullet that takes 99 pages on this site that one should/must read and go thru data sets GL Taylor has recorded for us. I can't wait to try them but with powder choices in this market, I will be patient. My time will come....
 
From this webpage:


I'm not a ballistician, but with slippery bullets, this article might be considered when shooting an Absolute Hammer. We find that less engraving pressure drives us to faster powder in almost every case, compared to traditional ogive engraving bullets.

"The "Catch Up Theory"
We do not know if the above load suffered from an accelerated burn rate (problematic with some ball powders), but agree with ballistic engineers about the probable cause.

The area under the pressure curve directly relates to the energy imparted to the bullet. The rise to peak pressure engraves the bullet into the rifling and establishes its initial acceleration down the barrel. The highest rate of acceleration occurs just past the point of maximum pressure. As the bullet travels toward the muzzle, lower pressure coupled with bore friction allows the rate of acceleration (not speed) to fall.

If there is insufficient gas produced by the powder (burn rate too slow), pressure behind the bullet will drop excessively. Then, as the bullet's rate of acceleration falls due to bore friction, gases may "catch up" to the bullet before it exits the barrel and produce a secondary pressure event. In the above load we believe the heat generated from initial ignition coupled with a secondary pressure event increased the burn rate of residual ball powder to near detonation.

Note: Secondary pressures readings taken at the chamber are lower and of longer duration than the actual event due to compression of gasses behind the bullet and the time required for expansion and contraction of barrel steel. The above event may have spanned only .1 milliseconds of time but could have reached 150,000 PSI!

Ball powders do not create the phenomenon of secondary pressures but the resultant pressures can be more severe. Indeed, secondary pressures can even occur when using large extruded powder. When using ball powders it is simply more critical that a powder with the proper burn rate be used to avoid secondary pressures entirely.

In every instance when secondary pressures are detected they can be eliminated by using a faster power, heavier bullet or a bullet with more bore contact area. Normal "tweaking" of loads may change the peak of secondary pressures but will not eliminate the problem. Below is the list of factors we now know can cause secondary pressures.

  1. Powder burn rate too slow for the bullet.
  2. Bullet weight too light for the powder's burn rate.
  3. Bullet bore contact area less than normal for the bullet weight
  4. Barrel longer than normal
  5. Bore severely worn or incorrectly lapped (loose/worn toward the muzzle)
  6. Moly in bore or moly coated bullets that reduce bore friction
We are often asked when secondary pressures are too high. Obviously secondary pressures more than 25,000 or 30,000 PSI at the weakest part of a barrel represent a safety issue. On a more practical note, loads that exhibit secondary pressures often show significant variation in barrel timing (when the bullet exits at the muzzle). Even if the timing does not vary shot to shot, it certainly will when the temperature changes so these loads rarely shoot well. Our advice is simply to avoid all loads that produce secondary pressures and keep peak pressures where they are supposed to be, in the chamber. If you shoot factory ammo, try a different brand. If you reload, use a slightly faster powder or heavier bullet."
 
I loaded H4350 tonight. I'm going to shoot tomorrow evening. Between each shot I'm going to load some RL16 and I may even try RL17. I plan on using 1 grain increments on the initial. Then if a powder shows promise then I'm going back and reloading the .5 grainers to develop more data. I'm fortunate enough my range is 20 yards from my reloading room.

And just so everyone knows
7mm Mag
24" Proof Sendero 1:8 Twist
Nosler Brass (Virgin)
F215M Primers
154 Absolute Hunters
Neck Tension .003"

I'll report my findings tomorrow night sometime. Wind will be high so I'm just running ladders on the powders.
 
Your absolutely correct but it's hard to explain to some folks, the faster you push the lower they go from the original POI
Count me among those folks. I always figured, for same POI, same projectile, the slower projectile would hit lower. Otherwise, we could slow them down enough, you would have no drop. ;-)
 
Ok, new rifle and first time trying the absolute hammer for 7mm Mag and 154 Grainers. Used Reloader 23. I had 50 prepped and primed cases ready from last night. Got home late and only 40 mins of shooting light and I couldn't resist trying a few so put on the Magneto Speedo. I loaded the first 7 just to find the velocity of the combo and was nervous about it so I loaded 7 rounds at 1 grain increments. Started at 60 grains then went 1 grain each load to 66 grains, seating depth 0.020" from touching the lands.

60 2849 FPS
61 2890 FPS
62 did not record
63 2960 FPS
64 3005 FPS
65 3060 FPS
66 3072 FPS

So at this point still no pressure signs so walked back in and loaded a few more

66.5 3204 FPS Primers started to flatten
67.0 3204 FPS Primers flattened and small shiny mark on head stamp
67.5 3225 FPS All the above with sticky bolt. Stopped here.

So you know that data doesn't look all that crazy little flat spot found even with the large gap in the grains of powder. The crazy thing was this, 60 grains started 4" high straight up no horizontal deviation. 61 was .25" below the 1st shot and 0.10 right horizonal shift. 62 about the same about .25" lower than previous spot and 0.1" right of it also. This kept the pattern to 66 grains on the 7th shot low and right each time of the previous spot. Then on the next batch 66.5 went 1" right of the 66.0 previous shot. 67.0 went .25" right 66.5. 67.5 went 1.5" straight up above the previous two. So It seems like I will be exploring the 66.4 to 67.0 range on the next day I get to shoot.

I just found it interesting that the groups were headed down instead of up. It's almost like the string of 10 shots where making a sine wave on paper headed down and right the up and right.

So, I was curious about the 66.5 shot and I went back in and loaded 2 more rounds up at 66.5 and those two velocities went 3,194 fps and 3,195 fps along with he previous one shot at 3204 fps so that's like a SD of 8 or so.

So what's my plan of attack next time? Play with the node I found or play around with the seating depth. I was thinking of moving the bullet down to 0.070" and play with the powder nodes again. Someone with more Hammer experience give me a little thoughts and opinions.
looks like 65 is your top safe charge. I'd like to see the vel. on the heavier charges, but if you are getting pressure signs at them you are running pretty hard.
 
From this webpage:


I'm not a ballistician, but with slippery bullets, this article might be considered when shooting an Absolute Hammer. We find that less engraving pressure drives us to faster powder in almost every case, compared to traditional ogive engraving bullets.

"The "Catch Up Theory"
We do not know if the above load suffered from an accelerated burn rate (problematic with some ball powders), but agree with ballistic engineers about the probable cause.

The area under the pressure curve directly relates to the energy imparted to the bullet. The rise to peak pressure engraves the bullet into the rifling and establishes its initial acceleration down the barrel. The highest rate of acceleration occurs just past the point of maximum pressure. As the bullet travels toward the muzzle, lower pressure coupled with bore friction allows the rate of acceleration (not speed) to fall.

If there is insufficient gas produced by the powder (burn rate too slow), pressure behind the bullet will drop excessively. Then, as the bullet's rate of acceleration falls due to bore friction, gases may "catch up" to the bullet before it exits the barrel and produce a secondary pressure event. In the above load we believe the heat generated from initial ignition coupled with a secondary pressure event increased the burn rate of residual ball powder to near detonation.

Note: Secondary pressures readings taken at the chamber are lower and of longer duration than the actual event due to compression of gasses behind the bullet and the time required for expansion and contraction of barrel steel. The above event may have spanned only .1 milliseconds of time but could have reached 150,000 PSI!

Ball powders do not create the phenomenon of secondary pressures but the resultant pressures can be more severe. Indeed, secondary pressures can even occur when using large extruded powder. When using ball powders it is simply more critical that a powder with the proper burn rate be used to avoid secondary pressures entirely.

In every instance when secondary pressures are detected they can be eliminated by using a faster power, heavier bullet or a bullet with more bore contact area. Normal "tweaking" of loads may change the peak of secondary pressures but will not eliminate the problem. Below is the list of factors we now know can cause secondary pressures.

  1. Powder burn rate too slow for the bullet.
  2. Bullet weight too light for the powder's burn rate.
  3. Bullet bore contact area less than normal for the bullet weight
  4. Barrel longer than normal
  5. Bore severely worn or incorrectly lapped (loose/worn toward the muzzle)
  6. Moly in bore or moly coated bullets that reduce bore friction
We are often asked when secondary pressures are too high. Obviously secondary pressures more than 25,000 or 30,000 PSI at the weakest part of a barrel represent a safety issue. On a more practical note, loads that exhibit secondary pressures often show significant variation in barrel timing (when the bullet exits at the muzzle). Even if the timing does not vary shot to shot, it certainly will when the temperature changes so these loads rarely shoot well. Our advice is simply to avoid all loads that produce secondary pressures and keep peak pressures where they are supposed to be, in the chamber. If you shoot factory ammo, try a different brand. If you reload, use a slightly faster powder or heavier bullet."
The
Beware huge unexplanied jumps in velocity. You may be in dangerous territory. Don't ask me how I learned this (and how to install a new extractor and firing pin!).
if it's a m700 you can't even get an extractor right now. The supply chain is empty since remmy hasn't built squat in a few months. I was looking for a spare or two after a member here couldn't find one; I couldn't find much of anything either.
 
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