A-Tips, terminal performance on big game

[Northkill]

I am going back out Friday evening. If you'd like I will follow up with you after that

Any luck?

 

[yobuck]

I reached out to Gunwerks here in the meantime. They are planning to do more testing on them this coming season. Guessing others will too. Personally, I don't have the game volume potential to do a test like that, and am averse to taking the chance. At least one ballistic gel test was positive, but we'll need more real world experience before I'll invest myself.

Since you are from Pa, take a ride to the Williamsport 1000 yard match on a shoot day and look for a very old and very fat guy who answers to the name of Frank riding around on a power scooter.
He might well be the last man alive who hunted with a 6.5x300 Wetherby more than 50 years ago.
Realize that the only good bullet available then was the 139 gr Norma match. Which had a lead core with a metal jacket, making it illegal for hunting in Pa due to it being attracted to a magnet.
But nobody ever told all those deer that were killed with it so it didnt seem to matter, at least to them.
Around 1970, Hornady introduced the 162 gr BTHP Match bullet in 7mm and that is what upset the cart on the 6.5 Wetherby. Before his untimely death in a small plane crash, Joyce Hornady was questioned about using match bullets for hunting. And he answered by stating that (all his bullets) could be used for hunting.
Some are still using those very same bullets today, but you could ask Frank about that also, as well as his opinion on the ones you have.

 

[Sako284]

Any luck?

Four confirmed kills at a max range of 629 yards. Appeared to expand OK. Not as rapid as a Berger or ELD though.

 

[Northkill]

Four confirmed kills at a max range of 629 yards. Appeared to expand OK. Not as rapid as a Berger or ELD though.

Appreciate the feedback. Also looking at a 300 AX build. Sounds like I should consider the 215 or 225 Bergers and maybe the 230 ELD-M's. Would love to try the 245 EOL's (3,100 fps +/-) but afraid there's going to be length issues for the mag box...

 

[acourvil]

I've heard of this in say the 180 ELD-M's pushing high velocity out of fast twist 28 Nosler's. What speed and twist were you at with your 153's?

2980fps in. 1:7 twist, so they are spinning fast. But Hornady's load info shows speeds in excess of 3000fps, and the A-Tip box says 1:8 twist MINIMUM. I have also shot a lot of other bullets at faster speeds and have not seen the problem with any other bullet (including the 147 ELDs).

 

[Bravo 4]

2980fps in. 1:7 twist, so they are spinning fast. But Hornady's load info shows speeds in excess of 3000fps, and the A-Tip box says 1:8 twist MINIMUM. I have also shot a lot of other bullets at faster speeds and have not seen the problem with any other bullet (including the 147 ELDs).

Other factors can come into play. You may be on the ragged edge and something is pushing it over. What rifling does your barrel have (style, #)? How does the throat look (how many rounds through it)?

 

[acourvil]

Bartlein barrel, 5R rifling, has ~1200 rounds through it, mostly with h1000. Throat is pretty worn but not terrible yet.

 

[FreeBeer]

Man I cant believe these conversations just keep going, doesn't matter what forum or country!

Put any projectile put in the right place & as Doug Marcaida says- "it will kill"

Will it work as effectively as a hunting projectile, not imo.

The fact that it has "Match" in the tag/box should be enough to let people know what it was intended to be for but no that's not good enough for some people.

Sometimes people just like to twist information/results for their own satisfaction & justification to use a projectile even though that's NOT WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR.

The chances of run on's or lost game would be way higher!

So I think instead of asking will it work, maybe the question should be what percentage of animals ran on injured & couldn't be found due to poor projectile performance over the number of animals that were DOI??

Personally I have never not been able to recover an animal. Granted I am young, and have only been involved with 33 big game kills. Blacktail, mule deer, black bear, elk, and antelope. I will say that I switched bergers 2 years ago and will not use a bonded bullet again unless I cant find an accurate load for a berger bullet. I never lost a animal that was shot with a bonded bullet but I did consistently have to track farther. Since I switched to Berger my 300 win mag has killed 14 animals ranging from an elk at 972 yards down to a blacktail doe at 218 yrds. Almost all of those animals died with 30 yards of the initial shot if not where they stood with ample blood. Black bear made it the farthest probably about 50 yards. These are all with Berger 210 VLDs. The elk in the picture was shot at 972 yards with my rifle by my friends nephew. I'm not saying these are the best bullets in the world but in my experience they kill, and they kill quickly with ample blood. Yes they do fragment, and yes if you hit shoulder there will be a mess. Since I don't gut animals, and instead do the gutless method I generally shoot a little further back to avoid losing shoulder meat, and count on the shrapnel shredding lungs, liver, and spleen. Usually a few pieces find heart too in my experience.

 

[Mc Fraser]

I thought hunting is about doing everything that you can to harvest the game as humanly and ethically as possible. The best game meat I ever had, was when the game was harvested under no pressure or adrenaline. I might be wrong, I almost always am.
I use only high-performance hunting bullets because I can't help to wonder what will happen if I take a bad shot. There is enough evidence to support the theory that target bullets kill the game but not as good as hunting bullets. For that scenario alone I use only hunting bullets.
The same argument can be had with sports cars, can you race a Lamborghini and win? Of course, you can, but when you race it next to a Formula 1 car you will always lose.
Has it ever crossed your mind that bullet manufacturers don't really want to have a wide variety of bullets? It cost money to have diversity. Don't you think they would have switched to a single bullet offer if they thought that target bullets will be as efficient as hunting bullets on a game?

 

[hunterbob]

I thought hunting is about doing everything that you can to harvest the game as humanly and ethically as possible. The best game meat I ever had, was when the game was harvested under no pressure or adrenaline. I might be wrong, I almost always am.
I use only high-performance hunting bullets because I can't help to wonder what will happen if I take a bad shot. There is enough evidence to support the theory that target bullets kill the game but not as good as hunting bullets. For that scenario alone I use only hunting bullets.
The same argument can be had with sports cars, can you race a Lamborghini and win? Of course, you can, but when you race it next to a Formula 1 car you will always lose.
Has it ever crossed your mind that bullet manufacturers don't really want to have a wide variety of bullets? It cost money to have diversity. Don't you think they would have switched to a single bullet offer if they thought that target bullets will be as efficient as hunting bullets on a game?

I agree, brother; I always use the same bullet for target and hunting...and i have lost a couple animals in my time of hunting...If you hunt long enough, sooner, or later it can happen, what you thought was a dead shot , becomes a miss, with all the variables , or a slightly wounded' that you may not recover...

Hogs are the worst, because they can carry a lot of lead, don't bleed , or leave a blood trail most of the time.. No matter what bullet we use...I seen one flipped upside down , feet up with a 3006, 125 yds...The rest of them ran every which way, and when my partner looked , the hog he hit first was gone... one shot with a 270 at 150 yds through front shoulder , exited opposite side rear quarter. It ran over a 100 yds in brush lol..

Neck and heart shot dirtnap 200 yds. i knelt down for the shot. If i can hit them in the head , neck or heart will usually anchor one.. 308 , 125 gr SST

 

[Starlite]

I've heard of this in say the 180 ELD-M's pushing high velocity out of fast twist 28 Nosler's. What speed and twist were you at with your 153's?

It definitely happened to me in the 26 Nosler and 95gr VMAX. They were, I'm assuming breaking up or losing/melting the polemer tips as the LabRadar only picked up the first shot of my ladder test. IIR the velocity was ~3600FPS.

 

[Starlite]

Head shots make an ugly picture!

Ugly or not it's my preferred target area. Head shots = DRT no wasted meat. I have a tree stand just off a well traveled trail to a feeding area. Its a shooting area of approximately 20-70 yards. My game plan for the past several years has been; place deer feed and apples on the edge of this trail where it crosses the shooting lane. This area is where I focus in on the high neck area. In my 6.5CM Ive Used a 129gr interlock, 129gr SST, 95GR VMAX, 143gr ELDX, 140gr ELDM, 107gr nosler 140gr Berger Elite Hunter, 160gr RN and many others. One common result. DRT ( and yes some are messed up ugly). If I know I can then I will always aim for the head. I don't eat antlers so..
In fact everything I hunt will get a head shot if I can ethically do so. My only self imposed exception is if I believe it to be a record breaking animal. Like a 1100+ lbs American Black bear which is the current record of 1972. It was shot not to far from where I live. Although perhaps that might be the best time for a head shot as a generally hunt BB with a 270 Winchester with a verity of pill weights. 110gr being my favourite for head shots.
Fun fact. in 1953, The largest Grizzly (world record then) ever shot was in northern Alberta Territory by a petite Cree woman with a petite bullet; a 22 rimfire rifle.

 

[hunterbob]

It definitely happened to me in the 26 Nosler and 95gr VMAX. They were, I'm assuming breaking up or losing/melting the polemer tips as the LabRadar only picked up the first shot of my ladder test. IIR the velocity was ~3600FPS.

Some times people think the faster the better...

 

[hunterbob]

Personally I have never not been able to recover an animal. Granted I am young, and have only been involved with 33 big game kills. Blacktail, mule deer, black bear, elk, and antelope. I will say that I switched bergers 2 years ago and will not use a bonded bullet again unless I cant find an accurate load for a berger bullet. I never lost a animal that was shot with a bonded bullet but I did consistently have to track farther. Since I switched to Berger my 300 win mag has killed 14 animals ranging from an elk at 972 yards down to a blacktail doe at 218 yrds. Almost all of those animals died with 30 yards of the initial shot if not where they stood with ample blood. Black bear made it the farthest probably about 50 yards. These are all with Berger 210 VLDs. The elk in the picture was shot at 972 yards with my rifle by my friends nephew. I'm not saying these are the best bullets in the world but in my experience they kill, and they kill quickly with ample blood. Yes they do fragment, and yes if you hit shoulder there will be a mess. Since I don't gut animals, and instead do the gutless method I generally shoot a little further back to avoid losing shoulder meat, and count on the shrapnel shredding lungs, liver, and spleen. Usually a few pieces find heart too in my experience.

Maybe I did not read this right, but I thought you wrote, "You had never recovered an animal you shot? !!!