A Serious Question

[pavementends]

I know that it's hard to believe that I "can" be serious. This will possibly stir-up some large differences of opinion…..hopefully no hard feelings among any!

Obviously, we all want the best accuracy that be had …..within reason! My qualification list should explain.

The question……What should the maximum, repeatable group size be @ 100 yards for this rifle/cartridge/hunter?

First a few qualifiers:

* The rifle used will be of a very practical hunting carry weight….for normal humans. Assuming, some elevation and steep country and up to several miles per day on foot. I'm placing that weight at 9 pounds….scoped, loaded, slung.

* The rifle will not be a "full-blown" custom job…..it can be a factory rifle or semi-custom that is affordable by the average hunter/shooter that may have a family, bills, ect.

This may help the potential LRH what his/her expectations should be!

* The ammunition can be factory or hand loads

* 600 yards will be the maximum yardage that this will be used on a game animal

Let the debate begin! Thanks in advance memtb

To stir the pot, glad you included hunter in the list. After establishing the rifle\cartridge capability I would add the hunter capability. On demand from field positions. I have seen far more 3/4" rifles than 3/4" hunters.

 

[AussieWriter]

Winchester Model 70 Featherweight. The one with the nicest wood will shoot the best.

 

[quandary]

It's interesting that everybody wants a sub 1 MOA lightweight hunting rifle. Go out and shoot 20 or 30 rounds at a single point of aim with that rifle. Under 10%, generously, will be sub 1 MOA over that 20 or 30 rounds. I have plenty of .2 MOA 3 shot groups with all my rifles, none of them are are better than 1ish MOA over a large sample shot at a single point of aim. I know this because I have done it with every rifle I have. We are not talking 25lbs F Class or bench rest rifles in this post.

 

[Teri Anne]

I know that it's hard to believe that I "can" be serious. This will possibly stir-up some large differences of opinion…..hopefully no hard feelings among any!

Obviously, we all want the best accuracy that be had …..within reason! My qualification list should explain.

The question……What should the maximum, repeatable group size be @ 100 yards for this rifle/cartridge/hunter?

First a few qualifiers:

* The rifle used will be of a very practical hunting carry weight….for normal humans. Assuming, some elevation and steep country and up to several miles per day on foot. I'm placing that weight at 9 pounds….scoped, loaded, slung.

* The rifle will not be a "full-blown" custom job…..it can be a factory rifle or semi-custom that is affordable by the average hunter/shooter that may have a family, bills, ect.

This may help the potential LRH what his/her expectations should be!

* The ammunition can be factory or hand loads

* 600 yards will be the maximum yardage that this will be used on a game animal

Let the debate begin! Thanks in advance memt

 

[Teri Anne]

I know that it's hard to believe that I "can" be serious. This will possibly stir-up some large differences of opinion…..hopefully no hard feelings among any!

Obviously, we all want the best accuracy that be had …..within reason! My qualification list should explain.

The question……What should the maximum, repeatable group size be @ 100 yards for this rifle/cartridge/hunter?

First a few qualifiers:

* The rifle used will be of a very practical hunting carry weight….for normal humans. Assuming, some elevation and steep country and up to several miles per day on foot. I'm placing that weight at 9 pounds….scoped, loaded, slung.

* The rifle will not be a "full-blown" custom job…..it can be a factory rifle or semi-custom that is affordable by the average hunter/shooter that may have a family, bills, ect.

This may help the potential LRH what his/her expectations should be!

* The ammunition can be factory or hand loads

* 600 yards will be the maximum yardage that this will be used on a game animal

Let the debate begin! Thanks in advance memtb

Out of the box rifles are more or less my specialty. I have owned and shot most of the popular rifles in a lot of calibers using both factory and hand loaded ammo. Some have been very accurate and others made the ultimate sacrifice and were tossed to the side as useless junk. Yes, they could have been fixed, new custom barrels etc, but why? That is not what I am look for. You want out of the box accuracy, a cartridge that is readily available, and usable out to 600 yards on antelope, deer and up to Elk size game there are two choices in my humble opinion. First is a Tikka T3x in 7mm-08 or 270. My 270 shoots Federal Premium 140 gr out to 300 (haven't shot at longer ranges due to range limitations) with a repeatable group size of 2.10 MOA. I also have a Winchester XPR in 6.8 Western that shoots 0.6 MOA at 100 and 1.3 MOA at 200 shooting Winchester 165 gr factory ammo. (photos from yesterday 11/18 verifying the sighting of the previously sighted in rifle) The photos below is the XPR at 100 yards shooting Winchester 165 gr factory ammo. The 6.8 has a light recoil which I have made even lighter with a target style muzzle brake. Recoil is close to that of a 243. The availability of the heavier bullets makes it a very good all around rifle from antelope to brown bear.

 

[memtb]

The 6.8 has a light recoil which I have made even lighter with a target style muzzle brake. Recoil is close to that of a 243. The availability of the heavier bullets makes it a very good all around rifle from antelope to brown

Teri Anne, we were walking "lockstep" "arm in arm"……until that last sentence. Unless you're talking about a typical sized "brown color phase" Black Bear!

I too believe that the 6.8 is a really good cartridge, except for the metric designation! But, Brown Bear may be just a bit above it's "pay grade"! I'll forgive you for that slight transgression! memtb

 

[GUNNNN]

I know that it's hard to believe that I "can" be serious. This will possibly stir-up some large differences of opinion…..hopefully no hard feelings among any!

Obviously, we all want the best accuracy that be had …..within reason! My qualification list should explain.

The question……What should the maximum, repeatable group size be @ 100 yards for this rifle/cartridge/hunter?

First a few qualifiers:

* The rifle used will be of a very practical hunting carry weight….for normal humans. Assuming, some elevation and steep country and up to several miles per day on foot. I'm placing that weight at 9 pounds….scoped, loaded, slung.

* The rifle will not be a "full-blown" custom job…..it can be a factory rifle or semi-custom that is affordable by the average hunter/shooter that may have a family, bills, ect.

This may help the potential LRH what his/her expectations should be!

* The ammunition can be factory or hand loads

* 600 yards will be the maximum yardage that this will be used on a game animal

Let the debate begin! Thanks in advance memtb

For my part I like my 6.5 prc, your first cold bore shot has to be spot on because you're not going to get a practice shot. I can shoot well enough to go further but I limit myself to 600yds at any animal that's not a varmit. Or a varmint that's shooting at me LOL

 

[Rosebud]

It depends on how deep you're pockets are, this rifle showed up at my place three days ago. I'm waiting for the dies to arrive to begin loading.
No, it isn't mine! A well funded friend bought it and wants me to break it in and work up a load using124 Hammer Hunters.
6.5 PRC M48 Nosler, carbon barrel, Zeiss Victory, no idea who makes the suppressor. By my best guess around $9000.00 plus.
It will be fun to play with, and maybe not involve the county police for him to get it back.

He did this snack dab in the middle of the rut here. Good thing he's not in a rush to get it back.
Sorry for the dark photos, its pouring rain here. But if you're interested in this rifle go to Noslers website. If I'm able I'll post the results of this endeavor so long as it doesn't cut into any hunting time.

 

[skipglo]

First, Thanks

Wow….nice lightweights. The Weatherby @ 6.9 pounds….it that scoped, fully loaded, and slung!

And….what would be your group expectations for that rifle be for 600 yards! memtb

6"....max! Or 1 MOA....I wouldn't accept more personally

 

[Teri Anne]

Teri Anne, we were walking "lockstep" "arm in arm"……until that last sentence. Unless you're talking about a typical sized "brown color phase" Black Bear!

I too believe that the 6.8 is a really good cartridge, except for the metric designation! But, Brown Bear may be just a bit above it's "pay grade"! I'll forgive you for that slight transgression! memtb

Well, to each their own, however, I was referencing both Grizzly and Alaskan Brown Bears. Griz and Brownies have been and continue to be killed by 9mm, 357, 44 Mag, 10 MM and the big bore pistols on what appears to be a regular basis under less than optimum conditions like "Being rushed by a mad MaMa or ****ed off boar." While hunting the hunter relies on well-placed shots, at reasonable ranges, with bullets entering the chest cavity and disrupting the heart and lungs just like any other big game animal.

I am not sure whether it was Field and Stream or Outdoor Life. Several years ago there was an account of a hunter being guided on a bear hunt on Kodiak Island. During the planning stage the guide asked the client what rifle he would be using. The client replied, 243. Cutting to the chase, the client did in fact take a nice Brown Bear with his 243 with one well placed shot. If I remember correctly, about 100 yards. Now I am sure that the guide had him backed up with at least a 338 mag or larger rifle, but the fact remains that life is fragile. Interrupt the normal functioning, especially of the heart and lungs and it dies a rapid death.

Now putting all of this in perspective, I have a 6.8 Western and with 170 gr bullets, i believe it would be a reasonable rifle to hunt big bears with. Conversely, I also have a 338 Win Mag. If you were to ask me, which one I would take on a big bear hunt what do you think my answer would be?

 

[memtb]

Terri Anne, thanks for responding. But, being easily confused…..I'm not really sure which one you'd use.

Yes, the big bears have been killed with everything down to a 22 rimfire.

But, if I were guiding…..I'd want a bit more hp than a 6.8 as a stopping rifle when my client muffs a shot.

And if I'm paying tens of thousands of $ for a Brown….I don't want my guide killing the bear that I paid dearly to hunt. Maybe, I won't make that perfect first shot…..and will need a follow-up. More hp, even with a less than perfect shot helps…..especially on followup shots.

Though, as you said, "to each his/her own"! memtb

 

[Guy M]

I know that it's hard to believe that I "can" be serious. This will possibly stir-up some large differences of opinion…..hopefully no hard feelings among any!

Obviously, we all want the best accuracy that be had …..within reason! My qualification list should explain.

The question……What should the maximum, repeatable group size be @ 100 yards for this rifle/cartridge/hunter?

First a few qualifiers:

* The rifle used will be of a very practical hunting carry weight….for normal humans. Assuming, some elevation and steep country and up to several miles per day on foot. I'm placing that weight at 9 pounds….scoped, loaded, slung.

* The rifle will not be a "full-blown" custom job…..it can be a factory rifle or semi-custom that is affordable by the average hunter/shooter that may have a family, bills, ect.

This may help the potential LRH what his/her expectations should be!

* The ammunition can be factory or hand loads

* 600 yards will be the maximum yardage that this will be used on a game animal

Let the debate begin! Thanks in advance memtb

It's a good question memtb, and the responses have been great. Lots of ways to deal with the 600 yard rifle - and I'm sure we've all got our favorites. BTW, I really like the 600 yard limit myself. Yes, I know people make impressive kills well out beyond that. I'm content with 600 as my personal limit on game animals.

Typically I hunt mule deer. Less often black bear, elk, pronghorn... Once in a great while I'll hunt whitetail. Just aren't very many of them where I live and hunt. I'd like to hunt whitetail more often, they taste great and are quite wary.

I've got the pick of several rifles I can use for this. If I'm serious about a 500-600 yard shot, a couple of my favorites could stand a scope upgrade. They all shoot under one MOA and I'm able to practice at that sort of range fairly often.

With bear, elk, and mule deer... I know I can get it done with the Bergara in 6.5 Creed I'm growing fond of, but I feel more confident with my good ol' 30-06 Remington 700 CDL. It has a mere 6x Leupold though, and out past 400 I'd like more scope. The 178 gr Hornady ELD-X shoots well from it and does a fine job on game out at 400 yards. With my handloads it's still doing a bit over 2,000 fps at 500 yards.

There are a couple of 7mm Rem Mags here that could do the job just fine - I don't tend to hunt with them as often for some reason. Maybe I'll use one on my upcoming cow elk hunt in January. My 25-06 has been wonderful on mule deer to 400 yards or so. I think it would do just fine on cow elk at 400 - 600 yards as well, just haven't used it for that yet.

I agree with others here who've pointed out that there are many rifle/scope/cartridge combinations that can get this done. The important thing is marksmanship. Shot placement.

Good discussion all, Thanks. Guy

 

[memtb]

Thanks Guy, I appreciate the kind response. And yes, some very good thought out responses.

It's pretty tough to beat the time proven 30-06!

Nice critter photos …..ya done good! memtb

 

[Teri Anne]

Terri Anne, thanks for responding. But, being easily confused…..I'm not really sure which one you'd use.

Yes, the big bears have been killed with everything down to a 22 rimfire.

But, if I were guiding…..I'd want a bit more hp than a 6.8 as a stopping rifle when my client muffs a shot.

And if I'm paying tens of thousands of $ for a Brown….I don't want my guide killing the bear that I paid dearly to hunt. Maybe, I won't make that perfect first shot…..and will need a follow-up. More hp, even with a less than perfect shot helps…..especially on followup shots.

Though, as you said, "to each his/her own"! memtb

Well there is the fact that I am a blonde, but not a dumb one. I shall clarify your confusion by letting you know that I would be using my Remington 700, 338 Win Mag which shoots clover leaf for smaller groups at 100 yards. If I was going big bear hunting. Just a minor point, what, difference does it matter if the client muffs the shot shooting a 6.8 Western or a big magnum? A muffed shot is a muffed shot?