A Question for all Hunters

[ProHunter]

I've been following this thread with interest, and on the whole, find the replies quite funny, and typical of hunters that have all the knowledge, and none of the experience.

You can clearly distinguish deer hunters from all others by their complaints about bad guides, lying outfitters, no hot water on tap, lack of comfortable accommodation, food, and most of all, their desire for a cheap hunt. Typical!

The only thing that no-one has complained about, (probably because it's too embarrassing), is that the outfitter didn't deliver the poor animal right into your lap without messing up your fancy suit.

How about tracking an African elephant for 31 days, sleeping in the veldt, being stung by scorpions, sucked dry by mosquitoes, with nothing but maize porridge for breakfast, lunch and dinner, with no early morning coffee, no cold beer, and certainly no Jack Daniels to clear the dust clotting your throat?

Watching your guide on day 17, with nothing to tell who's suffered the most, you or him, and whether or not to call it quits and bring this madness to an end?

Eventually, on the 31st day, when I shot the animal, I couldn't be bothered, or care less, about the weight of those beautiful tusks that I'd first seen on day 5, while observing the animal, far out of range.

I have been hunting in the most remote parts of sub-Saharan Africa for most of my life, and stopped collecting trophies many moons ago. I still partake in this sport on a regular basis though, because I love it so much.

Having read all the funny remarks, obviously mostly from Americans, I cannot help but appreciate the foresight of our Creator, as he obviously knew very well who to put where on earth.

C'mon you sissies, show some balls and put your money where your mouth is! Once you've hunted in Africa consistently for at least 5 years, you'll have gained enough experience to call yourselves hunters, and to appreciate the fact that your outfitter stuck a cold beer in your hand in the middle of the Kalahari desert with the temperatures soaring into the 40's. Never mind the fact that you didn't have your "usual" breakfast of bacon and eggs and little pork sausages.

For many of the above reasons, it is unlawful in most of Africa to let loose these sissies on their own, as they would be dead within 48 hours. Because of this, they are provided with a Professional Hunter to make sure that they get to the airport in one piece.

It's no fun to find out that you've been tracking yourself for 10 days in the bush if you don't know what you were doing, and then join the statistics with so many others who have become an easy meal for a lion, or a late afternoon snack for a hungry hyena.

Still, maybe I have exaggerated a bit, and you guys are not that bad, but surely you'll have to agree that hunters such as Hemingway, Ruark, Selous, and of late; Peter Hathaway Capstick, are not around anymore. Even myself, I consider part of a dying breed.

The true value of sport hunting cannot be measured by the "luxuries" that have become so much part of a modern generation. Trust me; it is the experience, which has no monetary value, which by the end of the day, as you sit quietly contemplating your memoirs, will ultimately remain. Not the "humorous" guide who had to listen to your nonsense, including the past experiences which, in an African context, suddenly become meaningless.

I just thought that I'd offer a different perspective on the whole issue. I trust that you will take it in the spirit in which it's intended.

Regards
PH

 

[Imortal Wombat]

No offence Prohunter, but how hard is it to track an Elephant...i mean realy?
Furthermore, if you couldn't careless about the trophie, why kill such a magestic beast?
Oh, and have you ever heard of a little place called Darwin?...no well, its 40 degrees there about as regulary as The Springbock loose at Rugby.
I trust that you will take it in the spirit in which it's intended.


Just my 2 cents

 

[Guest]

ProHunter - Is that moniker mean your are for hunting or you are a PH?
Rereading the posts before you I believe all respondants to the initial enquiry have put forward reasonable expectations.
I would like you to consider a few points here; look at my personal qualifications and maybe answer a few of my queries?
1. Seeing as you are living in Africa according to your profile you must be aware that times have changed since the times of Selous and even Taylor.Hunting area boundaries; National boundaries are just 2 that preclude the old style wanderings.
I would guess that your 31 day hunt was quite a long time ago?
2. By the time most people can afford an African hunt they are no longer in the prime of their fitness window. With this in mind the prime motivator is not how physical demanding the hunt will be.
3.Personally these are holidays and I expect some creature comforts such as my "cold beer and hot showers" mentioned in my earlier post.
4.One of the greatest motivators for my African hunts was the opportunity for exceptional wildlife viewing presented within the big game areas. I was quite happy to spend 10 days without firing a shot in these conditions because without exception there would be a unique experience to discuss around the campfire each evening.
5.As previously stated I have travelled to Zimbabwe and RSA on 6 ocassions probably totalling 8 months of hunting. Twice I have self guided and 4 times with PH with each trip involving Cape Buffalo as well Elephant on 2 of the 6.
6. I still hunt annually with a group of friends here in Australia in Cape York.This is one of our "last frontiers". The temps there in September can also reach 40C and we hunt similiarly to a lot of the African hunting - 4WD and walking - average about 10 miles per day walking. Sadly we do not have any "big game" to view and our quarry is feral pigs. In contrast to Africa we expect to account for at least a dozen pigs per day.
7.Well ProHunter if you are still with me at this point - how about a little more background? Where exactly is sub-saharan? where are you currently hunting? and what species? How long ago was the 31 day Elephant hunt? If you are a PH then obviously you have the horror client stories but I will bet there have been more good clients than the opposite! Most serious hunters I have met worldwide have been very polite and helpful.
Well - got that off my chest and hope you see my reasoning.
8.Or is this simply a "windup" - I note that this was your first post!
APB

[ 08-12-2004: Message edited by: aussie powder burner ]

[ 08-12-2004: Message edited by: aussie powder burner ]

 

[LB]

What was that spirit, as intended? Excuse me partner, but you sound like a total jerk. LB

(PH, eh? yeah, right)

 

[Umzingeli]

ProHunter--

With all due respect to a fellow countryman, I have to say that I think you've got the wrong slant on this.

If you've been following this thread, you should have seen that in my original post, I specifically asked these folks to mention all the FACTORS that affect their hunting experience, and everything that they, as paying customers, expect from an outfitter in order to feel that they've gotten the best experience possible.

They've been most helpful, and their comments and suggestions have given me a lot of food for thought. I haven't percieved them to be complaining in any way, just telling me what makes for a good trip, and what they should legitimately get for their money.

Surely they are entitled to a certain minimum if they're expected to shell out hard-earned cash?

And what better way to ensure it than to ask them directly what they expect that minimum to be.

As Aussie said, this kind of expedition is a holiday for these folks. Why shouldn't they have the good time that holidays imply?

--Umzingeli

[ 08-12-2004: Message edited by: Umzingeli ]

 

[Dave King]

Come on Guy's, he's pulling our leg (a bit).


Prohunter, we can take a little ribbing now and again but I'll reply a bit too. Just to let you know we're regular folks.


I've been following this thread with interest, and on the whole, find the replies quite funny, and typical of hunters that have all the knowledge, and none of the experience.

I assume you mean African experience and if so you're correct on my part, never been there. I have plans to go and take my wife along (she's pretty tough for an American (U.S. American vice Canadian American or Mexican American or Central American, etc)). Some of the replies could be quite funny I guess in retrospect but they're not too funny when a deer or bear guide shows up and he's obviously been recently recruited from a chow line in the nearest town and we end up with a liability rather than an assistant. And talk about good info some of these Johnny-come-lately's offer, whew!!! "You can tell a big bear because it can't climb a tree!" Well, let me run through the bush treeing every bear I come across and shoot the reluctant ones. It was sort of funny to hear at the time

.


You can clearly distinguish deer hunters from all others by their complaints about bad guides, lying outfitters, no hot water on tap, lack of comfortable accommodation, food, and most of all, their desire for a cheap hunt. Typical!

We covered a bit about bad guides, they do happen. One thing I'm (and others I know) are not interested in is a cheap hunt. Can't stand being around a less money is everything person. Sign me up for a $15,000 hunt over a $10,000 hunt anytime, heard too many horror stories about "cheap" hunts. As long as the accomodations for me are the same as for the guide(s) and outfitter (if he/she is around) I'm in tall cotton. A little forewarning might be in order though so I don't bring my three piece suit on a camp out.


The only thing that no-one has complained about, (probably because it's too embarrassing), is that the outfitter didn't deliver the poor animal right into your lap without messing up your fancy suit.

Like you, I've heard folks complain when they don't get a critter. I guess they figure the money is for the critter and not the hunt and opportunity to get a critter and I can somewhat see that for some folks as it's a once-in-a-lifetime deal for some.


How about tracking an African elephant for 31 days, sleeping in the veldt, being stung by scorpions, sucked dry by mosquitoes, with nothing but maize porridge for breakfast, lunch and dinner, with no early morning coffee, no cold beer, and certainly no Jack Daniels to clear the dust clotting your throat?

whooo-hooo, sign me up! I seen that movie, it was with a little Bushman maned Gao and Dolph Lundgren... ooops maybe not. Not a problem, let's go but let me know ahead of time this is a possibility so I can pack some sun screen and mosquito repellant, no scorpion stuff here so I'd need a hand-up on that.


Watching your guide on day 17, with nothing to tell who's suffered the most, you or him, and whether or not to call it quits and bring this madness to an end?

Eventually, on the 31st day, when I shot the animal, I couldn't be bothered, or care less, about the weight of those beautiful tusks that I'd first seen on day 5, while observing the animal, far out of range.

I have been hunting in the most remote parts of sub-Saharan Africa for most of my life, and stopped collecting trophies many moons ago. I still partake in this sport on a regular basis though, because I love it so much.

This was with Dolph Lundgren and Regopstaan as Gao the Bushman.

Having read all the funny remarks, obviously mostly from Americans, I cannot help but appreciate the foresight of our Creator, as he obviously knew very well who to put where on earth.

C'mon you sissies, show some balls and put your money where your mouth is! Once you've hunted in Africa consistently for at least 5 years, you'll have gained enough experience to call yourselves hunters, and to appreciate the fact that your outfitter stuck a cold beer in your hand in the middle of the Kalahari desert with the temperatures soaring into the 40's. Never mind the fact that you didn't have your "usual" breakfast of bacon and eggs and little pork sausages.

That "hunters" remark hurt, we're hunters too. We only hunt the safe critters though, nothing dangerous... Wouldn't want to lose an eye or anything and surely wouldn't want to be carried back home in a 5-gallon bucket after a "stick and stomp" session, that's what PH's are for!


For many of the above reasons, it is unlawful in most of Africa to let loose these sissies on their own, as they would be dead within 48 hours. Because of this, they are provided with a Professional Hunter to make sure that they get to the airport in one piece.

A little lighter in the wallet and longer on tall tales no doubt! I believe we could get along for a while. BTW, how fast can you run??? I'm kinda a slow runner and if you're pretty fast I can see I'll need extra bullets to defend myself from maurading hyenas, lions, hippos, scorpions, tokoloshi and whatever else shows up.


It's no fun to find out that you've been tracking yourself for 10 days in the bush if you don't know what you were doing, and then join the statistics with so many others who have become an easy meal for a lion, or a late afternoon snack for a hungry hyena.

Still, maybe I have exaggerated a bit, and you guys are not that bad, but surely you'll have to agree that hunters such as Hemingway, Ruark, Selous, and of late; Peter Hathaway Capstick, are not around anymore. Even myself, I consider part of a dying breed.

Teller of tall tales, Peter Hathaway Capstick, good stories but how many we're true (or near true). How about that hippo attack, wasn't that Valerie and Ron Taylor that happened to??


The true value of sport hunting cannot be measured by the "luxuries" that have become so much part of a modern generation. Trust me; it is the experience, which has no monetary value, which by the end of the day, as you sit quietly contemplating your memoirs, will ultimately remain. Not the "humorous" guide who had to listen to your nonsense, including the past experiences which, in an African context, suddenly become meaningless.

I just thought that I'd offer a different perspective on the whole issue. I trust that you will take it in the spirit in which it's intended.


I take it that you offered this in good spirit, odd and sort of sharp. Stick around, have fun and take care because we get grumpy sometimes too.

 

[ProHunter]

Dear Mr King,
Well done. Being a man of integrity, I have to come clean on this one.

Yes, you're quite right, I have been a bit rough on the guys, but on the other hand,
Having considered the replies to the simple question of what the hunter expects of an outfitter, I thought it would be good to throw a cat amongst the pigeons.

I must have achieved my objective, as with few exceptions including yourself, no-one have really replied to my baiting.

The point is that, in reality, each and every hunting region in the world has its own special character, and as such, one cannot really compare and generalise. Having said this, I don't think that there is any argument that southern Africa, with all its uniqueness, must rate as the best hunting destination on offer. If this is so, and it is, I wish that every sport hunter, could, somehow or other make it to this part of the world, as above all else, it provides the supreme hunting experience. Any full-blooded hunter will, at the end of his days, surely regret it, if he has not hunted here.

However, there are some issues which I would like to air, not as an outfitter, and not as a PH, but as a lover of this great sport.

Firstly, there are great concerns as to the lack of competitiveness in the southern African hunting tourism industry compared to other destinations world-wide. The pressing questions related to competitive pricing MUST be addressed in the near future if the collective industry wishes to increase its slice of international hunters.

Second, the industry will have to revisit its marketing strategies as the fundamental principle to underpin and contribute towards common interests and prosperity. The promotion and packaging of southern Africa as a hunting destination of distinction is diffused and fragmented, as it is conducted solely on the basis of self-interest.

Thirdly, in a modern commercial environment, the short-comings which I mention above primarily create an environment which permits fraudulent practices. This is a major concern, not only with the majority of service providers within the industry, but primarily amongst the most important group sustaining that industry, i.e. international hunting clients.

In defence however, I must say that the industry has excelled in the upgrading and delivery of "export-quality" infrastructure. There is no doubt that in the process, excellent hunting destinations have been developed that comfortably compete with the best in the world.

Equally, there has been a noticeable improvement in client services delivery, in both travel and tourism, and in the hunting tourism industry. The warm hospitality and traditional African friendliness has been raised to a level where it has become world-renowned.

On that note, I wish to extend an invitation to hunters world-wide to make the effort to come to southern Africa, for what I'' sure would prove to be their ultimate hunting experience. Maybe, just maybe, I will have the privilege of meeting all of them, at which opportunity I will beg forgiveness in person for my initial "rudeness".

To you Dave, there is a special invitation, as you make no secret of your desire to hunt this magnificent land. I too think we'll get on just fine.

And you don't have to worry about the running; I'm a big man, and the only thing that puts a spring in my step these days, is a wounded buffalo rising at my feet, in which case, I'm sure you'll be right beside me

Wombat--I'm afraid my reply to you must wait till after the weekend, perhaps I'll have to eat humble pie, and perhaps you will.

Regards
PH

 

[Dave King]

ProHunter, Umzingeli


It is of interest to note as ProHunter states The point is that, in reality, each and every hunting region in the world has its own special character, and as such, one cannot really compare and generalise." This is somewhat a problem in some cases, folks EXPECT one thing and get something entirely different.

Perhaps this should be better addressed in the come-on before the hunt(s). I believe this is what Umzingeli is trying to do in some manner.

I have arrived in camp and subsequently hunted with folks that made NO PREPARATIONS prior to the hunt, I asked myself "What were they expecting??". I guess they thought that like at home (their home) folks would know them, prepare for them, then take them up and nurture them along. They expected what they've learned to expect and apparently have no experience with the outside world (beyond their county/township).

Hunting with the same outfitter (sorry, just whitetail) I have been offered/have endured many different methods of hunting. I've been dumped in the middle of a swamp, left to stand on remnant of a muskrat lodge for hours on end in what I considered COLD weather when I had been told to expect an elevated enclosure with heater available. (Had I known beforehand I'd have worn something other than my flimsy girly deer hunter underware

.) I did survive with only the experience of having chilled my hands to the point where I couldn't work the rifle safety or magazine release. I'm a bit smarter now too "ALWAYS Dress EXTRA warm, remove clothes as necessary later." I bear no malice toward the guide, he hunts in the same manner and was only offering me exactly what was normal for him... a true northern Canada cold weather hunt, not girly heated hunt(s).


As I've stated several times before, I expect to be treated no better AND no worse than the guide (decent guide). To live/hunt in the local ways and customs is a delight, added benefit and part of the reason I'd go, for the experience.

Yes, I intend to go to Africa, where and when is open to debate. I have several new rifles (an American thing I guess) and will practice with them and bring them along. I expected to go next year but I believe I've been pre-empted by the wife and will be on a cruise to South America and Antarctica in January of 2006. Maybe I can still swing the deal, refinance the house in these inflated times and spend the equity, sound fiscal judgement.


So as turnabout is fair play, ProHunter & Umzingeli, tell US what YOU expect and what you consider normal. Maybe a new thread by the pair of you or Umzingeli.

 

[LB]

I have also been keeping track of this thread. Up to now, I have resisted the urge to reply to PH; as I'm sensitive to criticism on a couple levels.

First as an American, and second, from other Americans, since I live in California and have to put up with that stereotype, as well.

Wealthy clients the world over, are in a special catagory. Pampered and catered. That's not me, and most other hunters that I know. The only time I have ever been guided, was in Africa, and there wasn't any other choice. Just to illuminate, I'm not looking to dwell on myself.

However, the difference between his first post and the second is night and day. We were asked about expectations, as we all have a perception of what the Afriican experience is all about. Some of those perceptions are accurate, some not.

I especially was impressed by the geography of southern Africa. I kept telling my "guide" that it reminded me of my favorite state, Arizona, of which I am quite familiar. When he joined me there, in Arizona, a few months later, he had to agree, which pleased me very much.

The important thing is to avoid putting people in a box. White Africans are as diverse as Americans, and I found them to be surprisingly friendly to Americans, in general. Many people wanted to meet me just because of being a Yank.

I got none of the "put downs" that I detected in PH's first post, and I'm sure it wasn't because I was paying the bill. Everybody seemed to be genuine and friendly and the discourse was, as "equals". I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Tracking an elephant across sub-Saharan Africa. Okay. For a local, I suppose it's understandable, and doable? But, what it has to do with the survey, questioning foreigners as to their expectations, I can't fathom? You want a challenge, try tracking a coyote, at night across desert hardpan. Neither are particularly germaine to the topic, which is my point.

So, yeah. If the purpose was to elicit a negative response, it worked. If I somehow misinterpreted the tone and the intent, I apologize.

Good hunting. LB

edit: By the way, the Springbok lose at Cricket and Rugby about the same, mate.


(just kidding)

[ 08-13-2004: Message edited by: LB ]

 

[G0vernor]

…How about tracking an African elephant for 31 days, sleeping in the veldt, being stung by scorpions, sucked dry by mosquitoes, with nothing but maize porridge for breakfast, lunch and dinner, with no early morning coffee, no cold beer, and certainly no Jack Daniels to clear the dust clotting your throat?...

This is nothing! How about tracking a vicious wallaby for 100 (or was it 101?) days, sleeping in the bush, being stung by snakes, spiders, centipedes and scorpions, sucked dry by leaches and mosquitoes, with nothing but dirt (run out of porridge after first few days) for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and nothing to drink but your own urine.

 

[ProHunter]

Dave, the idea of a new topic is a good one. Allow me to put some thought into it, and I'll see what I can come up with. Hopefully, I'll get some interesting responses. Being isolated down here in Africa, I'm very appreciative of this interaction with international hunters.

To those sports fans trying to make a point: As for the cricket team in Sri Lanka, well what can I say? We take losing very seriously, so while the wounds are still bleeding, I'll try not to dwell on the topic. As for the rugby on the other hand, how about plucking those black-birds feathers one by one until they look pitiful and confused? One thing about the Springboks, they might not do it often, but when they do, they make a good job of it.

LB, you'll have to agree that we come across a diverse selection of hunters from all over the world. The point I was trying to put forward was that while most of these hunters come from a wide range of backgrounds, it doesn't always make sense to us that many of them expect the same sort of comforts associated with certain living styles.

My opinion is simply that a true African hunting experience is diluted when offered up in these instances. On the other hand, if the hunter would relinquish his pre-requisites for certain comforts, he would probably have a more interesting, if not more rewarding, experience.

I cannot speak for Umzingeli, but the responses to his survey confirm my above submission. On the other hand, I must fully respect the clients wishes, even if that means bringing a gourmet chef and an air conditioner along on the hunt.

T3Shooter,

I hear that those "vicious wallabies" and "stinging snakes" can be a real bugger. What more can I say?

Regards, PH

 

[LB]

Yeah, and I suppose congrats are in order after the 4X100 Relay win? A real shocker. LB

 

[Umzingeli]

Hell, I go away for a few days and my thread gets hijacked!

Anyway, I just wanted to thank everybody again for their most helpful input. Thanks to the responses from folks on this board, and the many other forums I posted in, I've pretty much completed my survey.

If you're interested, I'll start a new thread in a week or so to post the results, once I've correlated and analysed them.

Thanks people, you've been a real help, and I appreciate it a lot.

All the Best
Umzingeli

P.S
Thanks for the congrats LB.
Take it Easy
-U

[ 08-19-2004: Message edited by: Umzingeli ]

 

[4ked Horn]

Umzi

I am interested in your results. Please do post them.

Also what does your screen name mean?