A Few Quick Questions

[Small Lady]

My son took his first bear, elk,and deer at 12 all with 243.Nice mtn bull and a 150 + whitey.Still gets used

A coworker of mine has 2 rifles, both are lever 243.
1 has iron sights, the other a scope.
He hunts bear and moose annually, has for 20 plus years.
Took his bear and moose with 1 shot each when was with him, so know that as a fact. I was not actually hunting those days, nor had tags, but was tagging along, and his backup shot incase they didn't drop. This was last autumn, and my boss gave me 1 of his 338 to take. So there I was all ready, and they went down so fast.
Bullets are not heavy, but they are going fast, and out to 200 yards carry a hard hit. In his words, he doesn't shoot a moose or bear past 200, because it isn't a sure kill then. But he has never had to put a 2nd bullet into a bear or moose yet with a 243.
We don't have elk here in the immediate area, or grizzly bears. They exist a 3 hour drive away, but not near me.
Primarily it will be just to shoot for fun, eradicating troublesome coyotes, and a very slight of being self protection.
Honestly I probably wouldn't carry a rifle all the time at work, if not for it being a rule my boss has. If just going out off the clock, I sometimes do so unarmed. Went for a 5am run, no guns, but 8 dogs came with me, so I was very protected.
The 243 really does appeal to me.
Speedy little projectiles, and they fly pretty level compared to many others.
It won't be my primary hunting gun, the 7mm prc has that duty.
But fun to punch holes in Molson and Kokanee cans.

 

[MtPockets]

She's talking bear protection and coyotes to 300 yds, not long range deer or elk hunting, so your comments don't apply.

It is NOT a one size fits all scope. Each reticle subtension is TAYLORED to your rifle ballistics. You determine what bullet you want to shoot in your cartridge of choice and then match the Shepherd reticle to that ballistics. No, you can't use a Shepherd reticle designed for a .243 on a .22 rimfire, but it can definitely be tuned for your particular rifle and ammo.

Since she wants to use it for bear protection which most probably is at very close range, the size of the circle doesn't matter. She also stated she misses QUICK shots at coyotes at 300 yds or there abouts. Consequently, I'd probably get a circle the size of a coyote for those quick shots since she said she has another rifle to use for elk and deer hunting. Fit the scope to the task. She's not looking for a long range hunting scope.

The Shephard scope sounds interesting, but let me ask this one question.
If the object is to use the reticle on your quarrys body to determine distance to said animal, wouldn't the distance be different if you sighted on an elk or on a coyote? I'm just wondering how that works.

Not trying to bash at all, just trying to understand.

 

[FEENIX]

Small Lady, a very "fast" scope you might look at is the Shepherd. This scope is unique because it measures distance and holdover simultaneously. No laser range finder or fiddling with ballistic apps is required. It is also small and light weight to fit in a scabbard easily. For judging range and holdover simultaneously, you simply and very quickly select the size of circle that fits around your animal the best and pull the trigger. It works that fast. I've hunted with a Shepherd for years and love it. They have different size circles to fit elk, deer, coyotes and rodents and crosshair spacing for various ballistics to fit your rifle and velocities. Put this scope on a Browning BAR or Remington 7400 or 7600 pump in 308 with 175 grain bullets and you'd be good for bear protection and coyotes past your required 300 yds.

Shepherd Scopes | Rangefinding Scopes

Shepherd Scopes designs and manufactures rangefinding rifles scopes, laser designators, ballistic specific reticles, fire control systems, and binoculars.

shepherdscopes.com

If circles are not the preference, Holland's has the ART system, https://www.hollandguns.com/AdvancedReticleTechnology.html

 

[C-130 Dude]

I am open to a pump action.
Who makes a great quality pump 243?

Didn't know that there were red dot scopes that didn't require batteries and being turned on.
Whatever I buy eventually, I had thought about zeroing it for 200 yards, thinking that should about cover everything.

Have you considered a semi auto .308 with a 16 or 18 inch barrel? I have a couple and there are easy to use and provide quick followup shots if needed. And very accurate. You can also use on horseback with a sling or bag. You stated that you needed a new gun for bear protection and other game. IMHO, a 243 or 6.5 is a bad compromise for bear protection. The 243 or 6.5 just doesn't have enough punch at close range to bet my life on them. Put a good muzzle break on it and you can keep your target in sight with a semi auto and can't with a bolt, pump, or lever gun. You will loose sight picture with those. Not worth your life. Consider.

 

[MtPockets]

Here's my recommendation, in either .243 or 7mm-08.

BLR Lightweight ‘81 Stainless Takedown - Browning

www.browning.com

The .243 is an awesome round for just plinking and playing yet works very well for game, too.

It wouldnt be my choice for protection, but it sounds like that really isn the priority.

Good luck in your search and let us know where it leads!

 

[JustMe2]

The Shephard scope sounds interesting, but let me ask this one question.
If the object is to use the reticle on your quarrys body to determine distance to said animal, wouldn't the distance be different if you sighted on an elk or on a coyote? I'm just wondering how that works.

Not trying to bash at all, just trying to understand.

You are correct. An elk is 24" back to brisket, a deer 18" and a coyote 12", so that is the size of the circles offered by Shepherd and then calibrated for each distance, 300-1000 yds. The circles get smaller the longer the distance. They are FFP reticles so the circle diameter stays correct as you zoom the scope. As the target gets bigger while zooming, so does the circle get bigger. I ordered a deer size circle for my 300WM. Since I also use this scope for elk hunting, I took a piece of cardboard cut 24" square and placed it at 300-600 yds and observed where the circle laid over the cardboard. Turns out, the outside of the deer size circle touched just inside the back and brisket of the elk. So, that's what I used on elk sized targets. For deer, the circle goes on the outside of the deer and for elk, the circle goes on the inside of the elk. For coyotes, I assume I'd fill the deer circle inside 2/3rd for ranging, but I've never tried that. I've taken many deer and a couple of elk over the last 30 years using this technique when laser range finders weren't available. Only started using laser rangefinders in about the last 5-10 years.

 

[JustMe2]

I am open to a pump action.
Who makes a great quality pump 243?

Didn't know that there were red dot scopes that didn't require batteries and being turned on.
Whatever I buy eventually, I had thought about zeroing it for 200 yards, thinking that should about cover everything.

In my post #114, I discussed the Browning BAR or Remington 7400 semiautos or Rem 7600 pump that are produced in many cartridge sizes. Gunbroker has some listed.

Triijicon ACOG makes fiber optic scopes and here is a link to some alternatives.

Real Fiber Optics Rifle Scopes

The ACOG rifle scopes are unparalleled without a doubt. But these great optics are very expensive and not all of us can afford them. Therefore, the cheap and hight quality ACOG Alternatives scopes make the budget issue much easier. ohhunt acog style rifle scope provide almost the same...

www.ohhunt.com

More info

Best Rifle Optics for the Apocalypse and Worse-Case Scenarios - Firearms News

When it comes to true SHTF situations, there is a lot to consider for your apocaloptics and which optics will work best for your rifle.

www.firearmsnews.com

 

[Small Lady]

Have you considered a semi auto .308 with a 16 or 18 inch barrel? I have a couple and there are easy to use and provide quick followup shots if needed. And very accurate. You can also use on horseback with a sling or bag. You stated that you needed a new gun for bear protection and other game. IMHO, a 243 or 6.5 is a bad compromise for bear protection. The 243 or 6.5 just doesn't have enough punch at close range to bet my life on them. Put a good muzzle break on it and you can keep your target in sight with a semi auto and can't with a bolt, pump, or lever gun. You will loose sight picture with those. Not worth your life. Consider.

Definitely don't want a 308, and also do not want a muzzle brake.
A 30-30 will drop a bear at close range, and a 243 will for sure.
My coworkers carry by popularity in order 270, 6.5, 243, 7mm, 30-30, 338, only 1 carries a 338, my boss.
If I was going to go up to a 308, I would just buy another 7mm.
I am trying to find something bigger than a 30-30, without the kick of an angry horse. Flatest possible shooting out to 300 yards is also a factor. The 308 doesn't seem to shoot very flat, or at least not from what I have heard. The 243 is renowned for how flat it flies. The boss always has plenty of Federal 85 grain ammunition around for the 243 as well.
Has to be more than 200 boxes in his gun room right now.
Another thing if I go the 308 route is he would have to start stocking yet another ammo.
Nobody here at the ranch has a daily at work carry 308, 30-06, etc.
Some do as their hunting rifles, but they also buy their own ammo then.
My personal 7mm is for hunts I will go on with the guys, moose, mountain goats, bison. I applied for draws on bison this year, didn't get selected.
I know about 30 who i applied, 3 got drawn. Those 3 are planning a snowmobile hunt at Pink mountain.
Those who got a draw last year also did a snowmobile hunt at pink.
I'll keep applying, some year they may choose me.
It would be exciting to go on a bison hunt.
Mountain goat to if/when I get drawn.
This year I have a deer and moose tag.
Took my deer, will be trying for moose soon.
Leaving with my boss, his wife, Derek, and Ken on Wednesday for a 3 day hunt up the river. The men built a little camp up there, and jet boat to it. Moose are the main thing hunted here, along with deer.
Deer are super easy to get.
There are far more days I see deer, than don't.
Would love to get my first moose.
They fan out from camp in different directions, including across the river.
Walking the bush alone, in hopes of my first moose, already has me excited. Boss bought me a bright orange hat, his rule #1 is that on the moose hunt we wear it at all times when in the bush. He jokes that it makes us employees easier to spot and shoot us.

 

[MtPockets]

You are correct. An elk is 24" back to brisket, a deer 18" and a coyote 12", so that is the size of the circles offered by Shepherd and then calibrated for each distance, 300-1000 yds. The circles get smaller the longer the distance. They are FFP reticles so the circle diameter stays correct as you zoom the scope. As the target gets bigger while zooming, so does the circle get bigger. I ordered a deer size circle for my 300WM. Since I also use this scope for elk hunting, I took a piece of cardboard cut 24" square and placed it at 300-600 yds and observed where the circle laid over the cardboard. Turns out, the outside of the deer size circle touched just inside the back and brisket of the elk. So, that's what I used on elk sized targets. For deer, the circle goes on the outside of the deer and for elk, the circle goes on the inside of the elk. For coyotes, I assume I'd fill the deer circle inside 2/3rd for ranging, but I've never tried that. I've taken many deer and a couple of elk over the last 30 years using this technique when laser range finders weren't available. Only started using laser rangefinders in about the last 5-10 years.

Interesting. Thank you.

So, you order the scope for the intended game?

 

[Noobie]

Small Lady, I like your idea of the lever action in a .243. Been thinking that you might want to just go with a fixed 4X scope. Plenty of power for young eyes at those pesky coyotes and no chance of having the stupid thing at 9X when you need it at close range. Been caught too many times trying to make a close shot after zooming in to get details on a distant object and forgetting yet again to zoom back out. A bolt would be way slower and a semi-auto on horseback seems a bit dicey. Guy near here shot himself dead crossing a fence with a revolver last week, things can happen.
I'm pretty proficient at woodworking, yet wouldn't consider shortening a stock myself. Hardwood splinters when cut and it would be ugly, and you've got to get the angles right or it will beat you up on recoil. He can also adjust the comb height so the scope is at eye level. I don't like your idea of a slip on recoil pad (sorry). It is going to be bulky and probably hang up on your jacket when you are in a hurry. Regular recoil pads have two screws in back that you access by pushing a phillips screwdriver in from the rear - just as easy as a slip on. Get the smith to bore some holes for those tungsten weights used for buffer tubes so you can adjust the balance. Be sure to jam them in or they will rattle.
Talking about speed, just watch a competition trap shooter. They bring the gun up, then pull it back against the shoulder and cheek weld, and they are dead on the vent rib. You get that thing fitted right, and with some practice that rifle and 4X scope will become an extension of your vision.
Black bears normally don't pose much of a threat unless there are cubs involved...

 

[JustMe2]

Interesting. Thank you.

So, you order the scope for the intended game?

Yes, sort of. I used mine on 2 sizes of game, but using one size circle for 2 sizes of game is not what Shepherd advertises.

 

[C-130 Dude]

Definitely don't want a 308, and also do not want a muzzle brake.
A 30-30 will drop a bear at close range, and a 243 will for sure.
My coworkers carry by popularity in order 270, 6.5, 243, 7mm, 30-30, 338, only 1 carries a 338, my boss.
If I was going to go up to a 308, I would just buy another 7mm.
I am trying to find something bigger than a 30-30, without the kick of an angry horse. Flatest possible shooting out to 300 yards is also a factor. The 308 doesn't seem to shoot very flat, or at least not from what I have heard. The 243 is renowned for how flat it flies. The boss always has plenty of Federal 85 grain ammunition around for the 243 as well.
Has to be more than 200 boxes in his gun room right now.
Another thing if I go the 308 route is he would have to start stocking yet another ammo.
Nobody here at the ranch has a daily at work carry 308, 30-06, etc.
Some do as their hunting rifles, but they also buy their own ammo then.
My personal 7mm is for hunts I will go on with the guys, moose, mountain goats, bison. I applied for draws on bison this year, didn't get selected.
I know about 30 who i applied, 3 got drawn. Those 3 are planning a snowmobile hunt at Pink mountain.
Those who got a draw last year also did a snowmobile hunt at pink.
I'll keep applying, some year they may choose me.
It would be exciting to go on a bison hunt.
Mountain goat to if/when I get drawn.
This year I have a deer and moose tag.
Took my deer, will be trying for moose soon.
Leaving with my boss, his wife, Derek, and Ken on Wednesday for a 3 day hunt up the river. The men built a little camp up there, and jet boat to it. Moose are the main thing hunted here, along with deer.
Deer are super easy to get.
There are far more days I see deer, than don't.
Would love to get my first moose.
They fan out from camp in different directions, including across the river.
Walking the bush alone, in hopes of my first moose, already has me excited. Boss bought me a bright orange hat, his rule #1 is that on the moose hunt we wear it at all times when in the bush. He jokes that it makes us employees easier to spot and shoot us.

My only concern is about your size. And ability to put shots on target. In a hurry. Even a highly experienced hunter is very challenged to keep sights on target when faced with charging dangerous game. Thats why I suggested a semi auto over a lever, bolt, or pump. They are great guns, but a compromise when your not experienced at making quick followup shots. The last time I shot a bear with a 243, it took 3 shots. First quartering side shot, second in the neck, third in the chest. When it was 45 feet infront of me, it finally fell. I was extremely lucky to have put it down and not been killed. I will not do that again. A 243 for bear protection is to light. Especially using a 85gr bullet. It doesn carry enough energy. No chance I would put my life on that. Consider a bigger caliber. I might use the 243, IF I carried a 357 or 44 mag hand gun. But I doubt you'd want that recoil. In my 68 years, I've never actually met anyone that purposely used a 243 for bear. But I guess something is better than nothing. In any case, I highly recommend a semi auto for the kind of protection/shooting you describe. All the best! And good luck.

 

[sp6x6]

Mt pockets,Heres the thing a big 800 # bull isn't the same size as a spike or cow or calf.And when you start putting elk in small circles as I have at 7-900 yards this system is imprecise and lacking.Also im usually on a very vertical hillside and if I had the right circle it could cause a miss for extreme angle, this I know

 

[JustMe2]

Definitely don't want a 308, and also do not want a muzzle brake.

If I was going to go up to a 308, I would just buy another 7mm.

I am trying to find something bigger than a 30-30, without the kick of an angry horse. Flatest possible shooting out to 300 yards is also a factor. The 308 doesn't seem to shoot very flat, or at least not from what I have heard. The 243 is renowned for how flat it flies. The boss always has plenty of Federal 85 grain ammunition around for the 243 as well.

Another thing if I go the 308 route is he would have to start stocking yet another ammo.
Nobody here at the ranch has a daily at work carry 308, 30-06, etc.
Some do as their hunting rifles, but they also buy their own ammo then.
My personal 7mm is for hunts I will go on with the guys.

Here's a good article comparing the 243 vs 308 for your pleasure. The 308 drop at 300 yds is only about 2" lower than a 243, but it kicks twice as hard as a 243.

.243 Win vs .308 Win - Cartridge Comparison - Sniper Country

It’s always a fun and informative exercise to put two cartridges up against one another. In this case, it’s the .243 vs the .308.

www.snipercountry.com