7mm Rem. Mag vs. .308 Winchester

[Michael Eichele]

Look guys, I know the original post was 7mm rem vs 308 win. I never claimed the 308 would leave the 7mm rem in the dust, just that it had some good qualities, some of which are important to SOME shooters. I did however say I was bias for the 30 cal bullet over the 7mm. The reasons for that are in my last post. And even if the 7mm rem and the 300 win mag had the same capacity... well compare real world senarios with the 7mm-08 vs the 308 or the 260 vs the 7mm-08, bullet weight being the same and barrel length being the same. The physics will not allow the smaller bore to saftley fire bullets of the same weight as fast as the bigger bores. So for the same velocity with heavier bullets, well maybee thats why there are so many more bullets available to the 30 cal shooting comunity.

[ 01-18-2004: Message edited by: meichele ]

 

[Michael Eichele]

On a more positive note, (mostly for those 284 fans and those who despise the 284) is something I have always enjoyed and admired about the .284" bullet is that bullet weight for bullet weight (7mm vs 30) is that the 7mm is typically longer and while we have exhausted the argument about BC's and MV it is a commonly overlooked fact that longer projectiles penetrate deeper.

Ever tried to shoot through a sand bag with a rifle??? If you had you would know that a small arms rifle will not go through a typical sand bag.

Ever tried to shoot an arrow through a sand bag?? The right bow and arrow combo will completely penetrate a sand bag. Why? Because of the length of the arrow. As the head enters, the the energy from the tail pushes it through. When the tail is burried, the energy from the head pulls the tail through. Its the same thing with bullets.

Longer projectiles penetrate further.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

On the recoil issue: It really doesn't matter whether your shooting a 308, 7mm mag or 300win when the shot is fired at game animals in the field. You're only talking about 1 or 2 shots and under the adreneline rush of the shot, you don't even notice it.
Now that 300 Ulta - well that might be a horse of a different color

On the arrow vs bullet penetration through a sand bag test: The arrow penetrates because it is very sharp, has a great projectile weight to velocity ratio and it does not deform. The arrow transfers very little energy to the parting sand and pushes through.
If you fired a heavy, pointed, non-expanding bullet at the sand bag you would have to make sure that your favorite family pet was not mulling around half a mile behind the bag.

Typical soft point bullets expand readily on sand. The sand very effectively disperses the energy of the expanding bullet and prevents it prom penetrating very far.
I have had far more pass-through shots on big game with my arrows that were traveling 250 ft/sec than I have had with my 270,308 and 7-08 shooting expanding hunting bullets at about 3,000 ft/sec. Even my 7STW has had Nosler B-Tip bullets stopped cold by an average Penn whitetail.
Oh yeah - the whitetail was stopped cold too.

VH

 

[Ian M]

Varmint Hunter,
Your description of penetration jibes with what I was told by some very good factory bullet people - Lee Reed the guy who developed the A-Frame and Scirocco for instance. Frontal diameter is the key for transfering energy. Put a given 180 grain bullet into a .308 Win. and a .300 Weatherby and shoot them into a water tank. The Win. will outpenetrate the Weatherby but will not throw as much water about.

Michael and Dave,
I believe that we should start up a website exclusively for guys who shoot the mighty .308 Winchester loaded with 45 grains of Varget with either 168 or 175 match bullets and Winchester primers

We could pat ourselves on the back and smile knowingly as the rest of the world burns all that expensive powder, melts down expensive barrels and looks down their noses at us

If I had to select between the 7mm mag and the .308 it would be the .308 because I know and can live with its trajectory. The 7mm is a hell of a killer tho and I personally like it a lot. Between the 7mm and the .300 it would be the .300 hands-down. To hell with recoil, that is why they make X-coil mushy pads and breaks. I have a very light .300 Weatherby that is a dream to carry, kicks about like a .243 or .257 Roberts because of the break on the end and a beautiful fitting Rimrock stock. Has a 25 inch Lilja and it has killed a bunch of critters. Blew a few eardrums over the years - that is the price you pay for having fun...

 

[Guest]

Having the choice of the two calibers listed I would go the rout of the 300Win mag. I personaly just think that the 180gr Nosler Partition is a fantastic bullet for big animals such as Elk and with the velocity that the 300 offers you could easly take shots on an animal that are less that ideal
Say its the last day of the hunt and you finaly got that bull of a lifetime to come in , but he hangs up at 400yds quartering tward you , the best angle to get to the lungs and heart are behind that huge thick front shoulder , with a premium hunting bullet ie the Partition , you can bust through the front shoulder and still get to the vitals , plus doing that much damage to the heavy bone structure would probably break the animal down on the spot.

Another option is the gun I have sitting in front of me waiting on loads to test , a SS model 7 Rem chambered in 300RSUM it has a 22" Hart barreland is wearing a Zeiss 2.5-10x50 scope and tops the scales at 7lbs loaded , this isin't going to give you the same power as the 300Win mag but still plenty enough for Elk at 400yds.

No offense to the 7mm guys I just personaly like the 30 cal bullets for game.
the 7mm will certianly do what your asking I just think that the 300 will do it a little better , yes with a little more recoil but a good recoil pad and an instock mercury recoil reducer will help this out alot , unless you very recoil sensitive then a good breke solves that.

I like my 30-06Ai , I get just about the same velocity as factory 300Win and I can taylor my load.

 

[Michael Eichele]

VH,

Yes it is very true that an expanding bullet will stop faster than a non expanding projectile whether it be a arrow or bullet, but you cannot overlook the advantage of length either. Thats why "X" bullets penetrate so deep, even though they also expand. They are longer and have alot of weight behind the mushroom to push it through.

The 284 still has a better ability to penetrate deep simply because its longer. Expanding type or not.

I was making a "compliment" to the 284 bullet to show that I dont consider the 7mm bullet worthless.

 

[Brent]

If you're considering the rifle as a long term keeper and want the best performance you can get for the same money, the Savage in 300 Ultra is very hard to beat.

If you ever want to step up from there to a bigger cased 338 single feeder, Pac-Nor and others can pre-thread and chamber a custom barrel for you that you can install yourself. Buy another bolthead and have it modified for the larger casehead, then you have a nice switch barrel rifle without all the extra cost.

If you're concerned about recoil, rest assured the brake is an amazingly effective tool. It doesn't surprise me that the 300 WBY of Ian's recoils that little, my Ruger 416 WBY would be a ***** cat with one too but I just got used to it without one.

I shot a Moose at 640yds with it, prone off my backpack, and like VH said, I really couldn't tell you what the recoil was like, I was concentrating on being solid and executing the shot, everything else was a blur. I had no brake, but it could have helped to keep him in my scope to watch him fall. My son did a fine job spottin tho.

I like the 30 cals, the 308 too, it's just that if you can handle the recoil of the 308, why not the 300 Ultra with a brake?

The 308 burns half the powder, so it costs you about $20 more to shoot the same 150 rounds from the Ultra. Or $50 verses $70 to shoot 150 rounds. When it comes to a hunting rifle, superior downrange performance is all that matters to me, so I don't mind paying an extra $20 per 150 rds to have it.

Wind drift is the first thing on my mind, accurate range determination is the only thing that that concerns me about trajectory or elevation. Bullet path is a know variable, and it makes no differnce to me if it's 15 MOA or 25 MOA, either can be dialed precicely. How flat the round shoots is only of concequece when you misjudge the range, that's basically the only time the flatter shooting round has an edge. MV ES may affect the grouping potential at LR if it's far enough, but range determination is "far" more critical IMO.

[ 01-18-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Meichele,

Although sectional density has its place regarding penetration; I believe that what makes a Barnes X bullet penetrate farther is merely a matter of superior weight retention. I have used the X bullets and was impressed with their terminal performance, however, most of my rifles hate X bullets. They spit them out all over the place.

I'm sure the .284 appreciates you kind words.

VH

 

[robinstan]

frank21, i read your reply concerning the .308 vs. the 7rem mag. i would like to know what the rifling rate of twist is in your rifle if you could tell me. i also shoot a 7rem mag with a 26" barrel with a twist rate of 1 in 9.5" and was wondering if my rate of twist could stablize the amax162 gr. bullet. or for that matter if anyone else could tell me the answer to my question. thanks

 

[robinstan]

frank21, i read your reply concerning the .308 vs. the 7rem mag. i would like to know what the rifling rate of twist is in your rifle if you could tell me. i also shoot a 7rem mag with a 26" barrel with a twist rate of 1 in 9.5" and was wondering if my rate of twist could stablize the amax162 gr. bullet. or for that matter if anyone else could tell me the answer to my question. thanks

 

[Michael Eichele]

VH,

I also have the same problem with the X bullet regarding accuracy. I have 2 very differant 308's 1 will shoot the 180 XBT w/o the coating at around 2" at 500 yards. It does not like any other X bullet in any configuration. It of course has outstanding terminal performance. This bullet is 1.400 inches long and has a BC of over .550 Due to the desighn, it has 80% of the bullets weight behind the mushroom. I recoverd 2 out of a 1500 pound moose and they both weighed 180 grains!

The other rifle will only shoot the 150 XBT with the XLC coating well. All others, forget it. The cool thing is that this load performs the same every day and delivers well over 2900 FPS while maintaining right around .5 MOA and of course, has great terminal performance.

The "partition" bullet also has good weight retention and alot of weight always behind the mushroom.

 

[Tim Behle]

Robinstan,

Sounds like we are shooting the same rifle.

Yes, it will stabilize the 162, it will also work with the Berger 180's. Mine does shoot the 162's a little better though.

 

[Guest]

7 mm mag all the way. I have a 7mm mag sendero that I shoot 162 gr. A-maxes in at about 3000 ft a second and the performance is so good I have nver really thought of buying a 308 win.

 

[RAYZORT]

Well, I ordered my new 7mm Rem. Mag. today. Savage Model 116 in Stainless. Now I'm looking for a nice scope and will probably have the stock replaced with a McMillan.

Thanks for all the input, it helped in my decision process.

[ 01-19-2004: Message edited by: T. Ray ]