7mm Elk Bullets- Berger Alternates

[SSG Graybush]

8.5tw won't work with a .284 180gr vld-h?

I stand corrected the 180 vld-h only needs a 9T, I thought it was 8T, my 7mag is 8T and I shoot the 180 vld-h.
Edit: Berger must have changed the recommend twist for the 180's, I'd swear it was 8T, I built that 7mag to shoot the 180 vld-h.

 

[SSG Graybush]

My 7mag, a 700/OMR prefit 8T 26" using 68.8 grs of H1000 shoots a 180 gr vld-h at 2912-2919 fps, 67 thou jump. Shoots at .442 moa tested out to 300 yards. That's not max, just very consistent.
RL26 was faster but didn't give as good accuracy, ES, and temp stability.
Every Berger bullet I've used liked between 55 to 75 thou jump, in multiple rifles, multiple calibers.

 

[SSG Graybush]

It's not surprising because I don't think people who experience this are lying. Its just because I've seen similar bullets at similar speed do plenty of damage to kill. I mean there's literally a video posted above showing a shoulder shot (6mm berger I think) drop an elk in its tracks. I'd have to do calculations but high shoulder shots are what most of what I see people with lesser weight bullets claim drop elk in their tracks. A 225 in the high shoulder doing nothing in the way of mortal damage is very hard to believe in my experience. This is not looking good for hornday, id stick with the bergers OP.

I loved the flat base 150 Interlock #3031 by Hornady in my sporterized 1903a3, and the discontinued 162 gr 7mag custom factory ammo. But I don't buy any Hornady products anymore after I got 30 cal bt Interlock in a box of 162 gr 7mm bt Interlocks. And that was the second time I got a wrong bullet in a box from them. I didn't then and still don't have any 30 cal bt Interlocks. So I couldn't not have mixed it up. Hornady treated me like I was lying, like I was scamming them for a free hat. I threw it away.

 

[bfarms]

I'm no help. But just my experience, I've shot several different bullets. Pretty much shoot Berger in every rifle I own now. I think the pass through vs non pass through has more to do with velocity and shot placement than bullet manufacturer. 175 Berger on a doe at 750 ish yards in a bean field. ( can't remember exact distance) but it was a Pass through. She went maybe 10ft. Shot one with a needmore when I had one and it was at 60 yards. No pass through but went 30ft maybe and fell over.

 

[Sealesniper]

I think I have shot most if not all current bullets. What I know:

With todays technology, if the shooter does his job and puts the bullet in the right place (with the right energy, meaning know your ethical range for terminal energy) any of todays bullets will do the job..PERIOD.

I have had lost deer with Bergers. Was it the bullet, was it me, a combination of the two? I don't know. I do know down east in Hyde county, if a deer or bear gets off the trails, food plots or opening, finding them is going to be tough. A deer that carries a shot off will be lost, or a bear will find him first.

After several nice deer carried off my Bergers, I went back to Partitians for one gun, and ABLR for all my others. If I do my job, there is not tracking, as the deer or bear is dead right there. I watch them crumble. Will that happen 100% of the time? Doubtful, but so far it has happened a lot. So, both bullets kill, but as of right now my full confidence is in my ABLR. I have buddies that have had opposite experiences and only shoot Berger. What should you take from this?

Find a bullet that shoots well in your gun. Know your ballistics. Make sure you can make the shot before you drop the safety. The rest is just science, and if you have done your homework and your job, you can be confident in your shot and result. I have several guns that I am extremely confident behind. I know that if I have the target dead in the reticle, the bullet will do the rest.

 

[southpa]

I think I have shot most if not all current bullets. What I know:

With todays technology, if the shooter does his job and puts the bullet in the right place (with the right energy, meaning know your ethical range for terminal energy) any of todays bullets will do the job..PERIOD.

I have had lost deer with Bergers. Was it the bullet, was it me, a combination of the two? I don't know. I do know down east in Hyde county, if a deer or bear gets off the trails, food plots or opening, finding them is going to be tough. A deer that carries a shot off will be lost, or a bear will find him first.

After several nice deer carried off my Bergers, I went back to Partitians for one gun, and ABLR for all my others. If I do my job, there is not tracking, as the deer or bear is dead right there. I watch them crumble. Will that happen 100% of the time? Doubtful, but so far it has happened a lot. So, both bullets kill, but as of right now my full confidence is in my ABLR. I have buddies that have had opposite experiences and only shoot Berger. What should you take from this?

Find a bullet that shoots well in your gun. Know your ballistics. Make sure you can make the shot before you drop the safety. The rest is just science, and if you have done your homework and your job, you can be confident in your shot and result. I have several guns that I am extremely confident behind. I know that if I have the target dead in the reticle, the bullet will do the rest.

So going off your statement that any of todays bullets will do the job if placed correctly, the bergers that were "carried off by deer" were shots that you had to have missed and are not faults of the bullets. Did you switch bullets because you just don't like bergers or because they didn't perform based of a missed or sub-optimal shot placement? Either way, if you're recovery ratio turned 180 degrees after switching to ABLR than not all bullets will do the job if placed correctly or your rifles got more accurate with the switch to ABLR.

 

[Hikinghunter]

I think I have shot most if not all current bullets. What I know:

With todays technology, if the shooter does his job and puts the bullet in the right place (with the right energy, meaning know your ethical range for terminal energy) any of todays bullets will do the job..PERIOD.

I have had lost deer with Bergers. Was it the bullet, was it me, a combination of the two? I don't know. I do know down east in Hyde county, if a deer or bear gets off the trails, food plots or opening, finding them is going to be tough. A deer that carries a shot off will be lost, or a bear will find him first.

After several nice deer carried off my Bergers, I went back to Partitians for one gun, and ABLR for all my others. If I do my job, there is not tracking, as the deer or bear is dead right there. I watch them crumble. Will that happen 100% of the time? Doubtful, but so far it has happened a lot. So, both bullets kill, but as of right now my full confidence is in my ABLR. I have buddies that have had opposite experiences and only shoot Berger. What should you take from this?

Find a bullet that shoots well in your gun. Know your ballistics. Make sure you can make the shot before you drop the safety. The rest is just science, and if you have done your homework and your job, you can be confident in your shot and result. I have several guns that I am extremely confident behind. I know that if I have the target dead in the reticle, the bullet will do the rest.

This is a good summary of my thoughts as well. Should have known it would side-track into a debate over bullet terminal performance. Personally, I don't love "hydrostatic shock" fragmenting bullet like bergers just cause it's a messy way to kill stuff. Hence the question about whether there's a tougher cup/core bullet out there that compares. Agreed that accuracy is paramount, though. Nothing is more messy or unfortunate than a poorly placed shot.

Sounds like the answer to the original question is NOPE! Love em or hate em' bergers rather forgiving hybrid design and higher QC standards are unique.

 

[Wachsmann]

I think one thing to remember reguardless of bullet as the distance get further and further away and you get below 1800fps you have to think about expanding as what will work. Berger's pretty much expand as usual down to 1600fps and slightly below. ABLR is supposed to do 1300 but test have shone 1300 is really to slow. Regular AB I probably wouldn't go below 1700fps. Yesterday I was shooting my 7-08 at a Downey jug full of water and at 830 yards the bullet was slowing down enough I don't think I was getting much expansion. This was a 162SST. Velocity should have been about 1560ish. My bullet exit holes was pretty small. A few weeks before I did the same at 600 and the jug exploded. Saying this there was some difference and the main one was the 830 yard shot I forgot to tighten the cap completely and it popped off on one of my first jug hit. So I think the compression was different. But at that distance I'm only punching targets or water jugs with my 7-08. 600yrds if it's the only shot I have the I would probably definitely take this. And yes I have bigger guns for better long range work like my 300 ultra but I can't go out and shoot it every other week or so cause the barrel would be worn out or burned out. Personally I like the ABLR's but not at 110 dollars a box. I'll shoot hornady cause they are much cheaper and do pretty good. I also have shot countless Berger's and they probably are the most accurate bullet I've ever shot and yes I do shoot Berger's still.

 

[dstancu]

Looking for all the berger traits( quality, heavier (175-195 range), higher BC) but not bergers. I just can't get over "2-3 inch penetration, then rapid expansion". I'm looking for something that keeps most of its weight.

Only thing I know of for long-range is ABLR's, but I'm becoming less than impressed with Nosler's consistency lately. What other options are there?

I understand your concern about Berger bullets' behavior, on paper it sounds counter to common knowledge. But it's worth saying that it is by design, and that particular design works amazingly! Even from close range (150m), last year I shot a moose bull with a 210 VLDH (300wm), aimed at the heart, and it dropped like a sack of potatoes, it did not even know that it died. When I opened it, you could find a few pieces of lungs (no larger than your palm) in a sea of blood, but there was no heart to be found, only 2-3 inch pieces of it scattered in the chest cavity! Most of what was left of the bullet was found against the hide on the other side
I have pretty good/long experience with Copper bullets (Barnes MRX - the best, but discontinued, then TSX, TTSX), and I can tell you that they also behave as designed (very high weight retention, controlled expansion in petals that don't shed), and they penetrate amazingly, but I may add that they kinda over-penetrate, and they are not very reliable at long distances (need at least around 2000fps to expand).
Some people are of the opinion that two bullet holes (in and out) are better than one for tracking, but I am absolutely ok with just one hole if the animal does not go anywhere...

 

[ridgewalker]

JMO, but I have read a lot on bullet performance on many websites as I'm certain many of you have as well. Any and all bullets have failed at some point. Everyone has a favorite, but none are perfect for all tasks. Choose wisely, not emotionally. Just because a bullet killed a grizzly doesn't make it the best for Coues.
Again JMO&E. Best of luck with your choice and placement.

 

[PApa Black]

Cutting Edge pills.

 

[Sealesniper]

So going off your statement that any of todays bullets will do the job if placed correctly, the bergers that were "carried off by deer" were shots that you had to have missed and are not faults of the bullets. Did you switch bullets because you just don't like bergers or because they didn't perform based of a missed or sub-optimal shot placement? Either way, if you're recovery ratio turned 180 degrees after switching to ABLR than not all bullets will do the job if placed correctly or your rifles got more accurate with the switch to ABLR.

In eastern NC, many of the deer taken are small framed does and even the bucks don't get big bodies. At 200 yards or less, I found that a Berger, put in the best possible location for vitals, would "pencil through the deer" and the deer would carry it off 25-100 yards, because they don' have the body mass to have the bullet expand before it has exited. In a large open crop field, not a problem. In the Hyde county briars, vines and blowdowns, it is a huge problem. 50 yards on your hands and knees, dodging timber and pygmy rattle snakes, while trying to beat a bear to your deer is less than an enjoyable endeavor. SO, I tried bullets until I found one that transferred enough energy into a small framed animal to knock it off its feet and crush it where it stood. The Berger's killed, as do any other bullet that is loaded to proper velocity and shot into the correct location, it just did not kill them reliably where they stood. I still shoot some bears with Berger's and in open ground at long distance, I still have Berger's loaded for those shots. For Hyde, my dad has me load Game Kings for his 7-300 as he feels it knocks them down for DRT performance. Again, shoot what you have confidence in, as part of making the shot, is KNOWING you can and believing in your equipment, and that includes the bullet.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I stand corrected the 180 vld-h only needs a 9T, I thought it was 8T, my 7mag is 8T and I shoot the 180 vld-h.
Edit: Berger must have changed the recommend twist for the 180's, I'd swear it was 8T, I built that 7mag to shoot the 180 vld-h.

Berger used to print the OPTIMAL twist rates on the box.
Now they print the MINIMUM twist rates on the box.

I think this was to improve sales from guys that read those faster recommended twist rates and thought they couldn't shoot them.

 

[sritz05]

Looking for all the berger traits( quality, heavier (175-195 range), higher BC) but not bergers. I just can't get over "2-3 inch penetration, then rapid expansion". I'm looking for something that keeps most of its weight.

Only thing I know of for long-range is ABLR's, but I'm becoming less than impressed with Nosler's consistency lately. What other options are there?

Over 14 Big Game at 100 thru 900 with 6 being elk. Berger Airlines the only way to fly. All game recovered furthest trail 12 feet.
7mm 168"s @ 3045 VLD"s or Classics.