liltank
Well-Known Member
Enough with the causing trouble and look it up. It is on here. I read the post also!
Tank
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7mm-08 max range on elk?
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Enough with the causing trouble and look it up. It is on here. I read the post also!
Tank
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
400yrds with a high weight retention, designated hunting bullet. GS Custom, Nosler AB, Nosler E-Tip, Swift Scirrocco, or Barnes TTSX.
Good luck on your hunt,
Steve
Good luck on your hunt,
Steve
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
I see you believe everything you read on the internet too. The bridge is still for sale if you are interested.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
No thanks, been to NY a few times and you can keep it. (Originally from PA) That is why I live in MT
BB, You are a great contributer to this forum and I have learned a lot from you and respect you a lot and still do. But I find this sort of post counter productive. I think it's beneath you myself.
Soooo... Not exactly sure what you're getting at here? Are you saying this thread never existed and my memories are failing me, or that I'm a liar? Or are you saying the original poster was BS'ing us all?
My memory was a little off. The shooter said he shot the elk through the neck and lungs and then the shoulder.
To refresh your memory, here is the thread...
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/1350yd-colorado-bull-elk-37290/
You even made a siginificant contribution to the thread with some great pics and this interesting statement....
I see you believe everything you read on the internet too. The bridge is still for sale if you are interested.
Quite a few well known members here believed the story also and congradulated the shooter. Maybe you could read through the thread again and make the same offer to them just to be fair...
Maybe this guy was BS'ing us but I ran the numbers and the ballistics tell me it was doable....
.... just llike the ballistics tell the 7-08 can do it with the right load from 600-800 yds.
Curious... are you saying that a 7mm cannot or should not be used to kill elk? If you think it can kill elk, what do you think the limits are?
Regards,
Mark
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Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Like I said on that thread, " I don't often run my mouth about bullets I don't personally shoot and animals I don't personally kill."
I tried long ago with the predecessor to the AMAX (162 HPBT match) and at almost exactly that impact speed. The range was only 1100 yards but muzzle velocity differences cancel out the differences in range and it wouldn't even break one shoulder much less two of even a spike and a smallish spike at that. My understanding of the bullet in question is that the only change Hornady made was to put the tip on it, the core and jacket remain the same.
So yes I have BTDT. Won't ever try it again.
Whether the one hit wonder guy who had never made a post before and has not made any since killed an elk with an Amax and did it exactly as he says I do not actually know. And it does not actually matter much to me except that it suddenly appeared on a thread where it might cause a guy's once in a lifetime hunt to be ruined by selecting a bullet that is not likely to perform. So the way I see it some people did the guy a disservice by recommending a bullet that in my experience is not a good elk bullet The guy will likely spend upwards of $10,000 to go elk hunting and bad advice causes that money to be wasted and the once in a lifetime hunting trip soured. People seem to be very free with bad advice when it is someone elses money and time.
When you "run the numbers" do you have a factor you include for energy of deformation? The momentum calculation is only an accurate indicator for bullet of similar construction. If you lose too much energy through deformation you will need to use a correction factor. That factor can be gathered from your personal experience or that of others if they will know enough about bullets and physics to supply you with the needed details. Deformation can be anywhere from 0% to 100%. Think about a FMJ on an antelope it will give you 0% deformation losses. On the other hand shoot a varmint bullet at a gong and you will get 100% loss. The way I decide on the factor is to consider all of the bullets I have ever shot at an animal and then go and take them out into the garage and but them in a vise and beat on them with a 3# hammer. You can get a idea of relative deformation if you are consistent with the hammer.
So, if you want to kill an elk at long range with a marginal caliber and you are not one of the great masses of people who can always get the bullet placement that they desire then hedge your bet with a bullet that is not going to deform much or else has large amounts of momentum because of high sectional density. The only thing wrong with shooting animals with FMJs is that it is illegal otherwise you don't really loose much, maybe 10-15% of wound channel.
I tried long ago with the predecessor to the AMAX (162 HPBT match) and at almost exactly that impact speed. The range was only 1100 yards but muzzle velocity differences cancel out the differences in range and it wouldn't even break one shoulder much less two of even a spike and a smallish spike at that. My understanding of the bullet in question is that the only change Hornady made was to put the tip on it, the core and jacket remain the same.
So yes I have BTDT. Won't ever try it again.
Whether the one hit wonder guy who had never made a post before and has not made any since killed an elk with an Amax and did it exactly as he says I do not actually know. And it does not actually matter much to me except that it suddenly appeared on a thread where it might cause a guy's once in a lifetime hunt to be ruined by selecting a bullet that is not likely to perform. So the way I see it some people did the guy a disservice by recommending a bullet that in my experience is not a good elk bullet The guy will likely spend upwards of $10,000 to go elk hunting and bad advice causes that money to be wasted and the once in a lifetime hunting trip soured. People seem to be very free with bad advice when it is someone elses money and time.
When you "run the numbers" do you have a factor you include for energy of deformation? The momentum calculation is only an accurate indicator for bullet of similar construction. If you lose too much energy through deformation you will need to use a correction factor. That factor can be gathered from your personal experience or that of others if they will know enough about bullets and physics to supply you with the needed details. Deformation can be anywhere from 0% to 100%. Think about a FMJ on an antelope it will give you 0% deformation losses. On the other hand shoot a varmint bullet at a gong and you will get 100% loss. The way I decide on the factor is to consider all of the bullets I have ever shot at an animal and then go and take them out into the garage and but them in a vise and beat on them with a 3# hammer. You can get a idea of relative deformation if you are consistent with the hammer.
So, if you want to kill an elk at long range with a marginal caliber and you are not one of the great masses of people who can always get the bullet placement that they desire then hedge your bet with a bullet that is not going to deform much or else has large amounts of momentum because of high sectional density. The only thing wrong with shooting animals with FMJs is that it is illegal otherwise you don't really loose much, maybe 10-15% of wound channel.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
BB, Thank you for the cogent reply. This will give the OP something much more to chew on and digest as opposed to real estate speculation in NY. As for "marginal LR" cartridge, I think we're getting into subjective definitions. I find it interesting how some automatically will rate a cartridge as marginal or inferior based soley on the cartridges definintion, in this case the lowly 7-08 and then turn around and add the designation of Rem Mag and we all of a sudden have gone from a 400 yd to a 1000 yd cartridge with about 400 fps jump in velocity with the same bullet. That truely amazes me. The same holds for other calibers.
I expressed to the OP what I though my limits for a particular bullet with a particular MV at a particular elevation would be, unlike some others who just seem to randomly pick some distance out of their backside based on intuition. The OP is free to consider the info provided, then accept or reject the advice. My advice also included the caveaut of a "well placed" bullet to the boiler room which doen't offer a whole lot of resistance to an expanding guilded metal bullet in the thin skined wapiti. The well placed shot is up to the OP.
You do have an interesting way of testing bullets. I dont really think I could draw much of a conclusion with a test like that. Nolser advertises an expanding velocity of 1800 fps for this bullet and from what I've observed with their other bullets, they seem open at advertised velocities and less. So I will stand by my original estimatiom based on the assumed data, which also accounts for energy transfer in deformation. IME, a 7mm 150 g FMJ would need a lot less than 1800 fps to penetrate the boiler room of an elk. And just to make it clear, I stressed to the OP to consider the expanding limitaitions of the bullet.
Mark
I expressed to the OP what I though my limits for a particular bullet with a particular MV at a particular elevation would be, unlike some others who just seem to randomly pick some distance out of their backside based on intuition. The OP is free to consider the info provided, then accept or reject the advice. My advice also included the caveaut of a "well placed" bullet to the boiler room which doen't offer a whole lot of resistance to an expanding guilded metal bullet in the thin skined wapiti. The well placed shot is up to the OP.
You do have an interesting way of testing bullets. I dont really think I could draw much of a conclusion with a test like that. Nolser advertises an expanding velocity of 1800 fps for this bullet and from what I've observed with their other bullets, they seem open at advertised velocities and less. So I will stand by my original estimatiom based on the assumed data, which also accounts for energy transfer in deformation. IME, a 7mm 150 g FMJ would need a lot less than 1800 fps to penetrate the boiler room of an elk. And just to make it clear, I stressed to the OP to consider the expanding limitaitions of the bullet.
Mark
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liltank
Well-Known Member
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Bullets, smullets.......
I went to my dauther & son-in-law's for dinner yesterday evening. Main course was elk heart from a recently harvested fair to good sized bull. Dinner was great, grand kids were great.
After dinner I went to the garage to look at the still hanging carcass. It was all in one hunk. Son-in-law is a large fella and doesn't quarter anything till its hanging at the house.
I looked for wound channel, terminal performance, etc.
No holes in rib cage????
Noticed a slice in the brisket??? No external damage just a crease through the upper half of the sternum???
My bubble broke! Thought of this thread........
This elk was hyped up, having been chased w/an atv and two previous shots (misses). Thus one would figure that such a marginal hit would take some more "fair chase"
I asked how far it went after the shot. He replied less than 10 yards.........
The shot was an estimated 110 yds.
I asked what he shot it with. He replied................."a muzzle loader"
And I thought the very worst bullet for elk was the 60gr Sierra 223 @ 2600 fps. But it nailed an elk at 120 yds, (poor fella thought it was a muley.)
Just something to think about.
I went to my dauther & son-in-law's for dinner yesterday evening. Main course was elk heart from a recently harvested fair to good sized bull. Dinner was great, grand kids were great.
After dinner I went to the garage to look at the still hanging carcass. It was all in one hunk. Son-in-law is a large fella and doesn't quarter anything till its hanging at the house.
I looked for wound channel, terminal performance, etc.
No holes in rib cage????
Noticed a slice in the brisket??? No external damage just a crease through the upper half of the sternum???
My bubble broke! Thought of this thread........
This elk was hyped up, having been chased w/an atv and two previous shots (misses). Thus one would figure that such a marginal hit would take some more "fair chase
"I asked how far it went after the shot. He replied less than 10 yards.........
The shot was an estimated 110 yds.
I asked what he shot it with. He replied................."a muzzle loader"
And I thought the very worst bullet for elk was the 60gr Sierra 223 @ 2600 fps.
But it nailed an elk at 120 yds, (poor fella thought it was a muley.)Just something to think about.
