60* or 90*, preference? One better than the other?

[josip89]

No, brass doesn't work like that. Quality bolt heads don't do that either.

I personaly dont have any proof for anything.
To my logic it is better to have 3 lug but that is me.
But I will say again ,for "Banana" effect on brass it not my words but from David Tubb and that name hase some weight.

 

[Greyfox]

I own, and have used both for hunting and competition. While I will do have a strong preference for a 90 degree(CRF) with my large caliber DGR's(for extraction/feeding reliability), for all other applications my design preferences are based more on the particular maker/brand, with other design attributes(ergonomic and function) having more influence then whether the bolt throw is 60 or 90 degrees. Two of my long time favorites are a short action Surgeon 591(90 degree) used for competition, and my medium action Cooper 520(60 degree) used for LRH. Both have proven to be reliable, fast, smooth, and exceptionally accurate.

 

[orkan]

I wonder how many actions the participants of this thread have used for more than a cursory few round evaluation?

To properly discuss a topic such as this, takes quite a lot of exposure to quite a lot of pricey equipment. You can't try a couple 3-lug 60° designs and a couple 2 lug 90° designs and have enough experience to place everything in both categories in the proper hierarchy.

For all the talk of 60°, why no mention of Terminus? (did I miss its mention?) It's probably the best of any 60° setups I've felt, but still not as good as my Lone Peaks or BAT TR's. Why are we talking about factory rifles, as if that's where the nuance of this discussion lives? When buying off the cabelas rack, you're just as likely to get trash as you are something good, and that's even among two identical rifles. The rifle lottery, as I call it.

The focus of my work is on high end rifle systems, and they almost always entail a custom action of some type. Perhaps there's a disparity of opinion due to the simple fact that most people are running big-box brands that never have anyone qualified looking at lug contact or bolt body cam wear? What I'm sharing is undeniable fact, but to be aware of the facts requires being elbow deep in a huge number of actions. Actions which see significant round count.

I'm reminded of how many times people show up for training, never once having felt what actual smooth bolt lift and wonderous ergo's feel like, despite having experience with all manner of factory and custom actions. Every one of them though they knew, until they were handed something that made them realize they didn't know.

Given that reality, I think it best that I simply not engage in topics like this in the future. When someone is here, I can hand things to them and they can feel for themselves. When they ALL choose the same actions as "feeling best," this is not something that is an opinion. When discussing it on the internet, it's all conjecture and people get conned into thinking there is no right answer.

For those that care, there is a right answer. Last week I had a gentleman out for a prairie dog shoot. He started off with a Tikka, but it just wouldn't shoot. Next day we zeroed up his savage, and for 2 days I watched that man beat on that bolt. Struggling to keep a prairie dog in his scope while closing the bolt. One issue after the next, including a complete seizing of the fire control group that I had to help him fix. The only thing it did well was accuracy/precision, when it was functioning. Every single person that has ever been here with a savage has exhibited some form of similar stoppage, even with the lightest possible firing schedule. Yet there are those that would recommend a savage to anyone and singing their praises, and vilify me for sharing the facts.

In closing, I'm reminded once again how anonymous social spaces which provide no ability to demonstrate experience or prove what is said, are wildly inadequate for discussing nuanced facts. Everyone thinks their rifle and action is great, no matter if it's great or not... because if they didn't, they'd sell it to someone that thought it was great.

I hope you all have a wonderful week! It's due to be a hot one here, so I have a bunch of bench items to do, like neck turning and such!

God Bless!

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[WeiserBucks]

I wonder how many actions the participants of this thread have used for more than a cursory few round evaluation?

To properly discuss a topic such as this, takes quite a lot of exposure to quite a lot of pricey equipment. You can't try a couple 3-lug 60° designs and a couple 2 lug 90° designs and have enough experience to place everything in both categories in the proper hierarchy.

For all the talk of 60°, why no mention of Terminus? (did I miss its mention?) It's probably the best of any 60° setups I've felt, but still not as good as my Lone Peaks or BAT TR's. Why are we talking about factory rifles, as if that's where the nuance of this discussion lives? When buying off the cabelas rack, you're just as likely to get trash as you are something good, and that's even among two identical rifles. The rifle lottery, as I call it.

The focus of my work is on high end rifle systems, and they almost always entail a custom action of some type. Perhaps there's a disparity of opinion due to the simple fact that most people are running big-box brands that never have anyone qualified looking at lug contact or bolt body cam wear? What I'm sharing is undeniable fact, but to be aware of the facts requires being elbow deep in a huge number of actions. Actions which see significant round count.

I'm reminded of how many times people show up for training, never once having felt what actual smooth bolt lift and wonderous ergo's feel like, despite having experience with all manner of factory and custom actions. Every one of them though they knew, until they were handed something that made them realize they didn't know.

Given that reality, I think it best that I simply not engage in topics like this in the future. When someone is here, I can hand things to them and they can feel for themselves. When they ALL choose the same actions as "feeling best," this is not something that is an opinion. When discussing it on the internet, it's all conjecture and people get conned into thinking there is no right answer.

For those that care, there is a right answer. Last week I had a gentleman out for a prairie dog shoot. He started off with a Tikka, but it just wouldn't shoot. Next day we zeroed up his savage, and for 2 days I watched that man beat on that bolt. Struggling to keep a prairie dog in his scope while closing the bolt. One issue after the next, including a complete seizing of the fire control group that I had to help him fix. The only thing it did well was accuracy/precision, when it was functioning. Every single person that has ever been here with a savage has exhibited some form of similar stoppage, even with the lightest possible firing schedule. Yet there are those that would recommend a savage to anyone and singing their praises, and vilify me for sharing the facts.

In closing, I'm reminded once again how anonymous social spaces which provide no ability to demonstrate experience or prove what is said, are wildly inadequate for discussing nuanced facts. Everyone thinks their rifle and action is great, no matter if it's great or not... because if they didn't, they'd sell it to someone that thought it was great.

I hope you all have a wonderful week! It's due to be a hot one here, so I have a bunch of bench items to do, like neck turning and such!

God Bless!

-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

You'd be surprised by the number of members here that shoot factory rifles and factory ammo exclusively, many of them have likely never handled a quality custom action.

 

[shinbone]

The internet certainly has its limitations when discussing technical subjects. For those that didn't find that obvious from the start, maybe it is better they do move on to a different format.

Also, thinking that only those who spend a lot of money for custom actions have valid preferences, or, those who project personal/local preference as the best choice for everyone else would probably be happier avoiding internet discussion forums, as well.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

I wonder how many actions the participants of this thread have used for more than a cursory few round evaluation?

To properly discuss a topic such as this, takes quite a lot of exposure to quite a lot of pricey equipment. You can't try a couple 3-lug 60° designs and a couple 2 lug 90° designs and have enough experience to place everything in both categories in the proper hierarchy.

For all the talk of 60°, why no mention of Terminus? (did I miss its mention?) It's probably the best of any 60° setups I've felt, but still not as good as my Lone Peaks or BAT TR's. Why are we talking about factory rifles, as if that's where the nuance of this discussion lives? When buying off the cabelas rack, you're just as likely to get trash as you are something good, and that's even among two identical rifles. The rifle lottery, as I call it.

The focus of my work is on high end rifle systems, and they almost always entail a custom action of some type. Perhaps there's a disparity of opinion due to the simple fact that most people are running big-box brands that never have anyone qualified looking at lug contact or bolt body cam wear? What I'm sharing is undeniable fact, but to be aware of the facts requires being elbow deep in a huge number of actions. Actions which see significant round count.

I'm reminded of how many times people show up for training, never once having felt what actual smooth bolt lift and wonderous ergo's feel like, despite having experience with all manner of factory and custom actions. Every one of them though they knew, until they were handed something that made them realize they didn't know.

Given that reality, I think it best that I simply not engage in topics like this in the future. When someone is here, I can hand things to them and they can feel for themselves. When they ALL choose the same actions as "feeling best," this is not something that is an opinion. When discussing it on the internet, it's all conjecture and people get conned into thinking there is no right answer.

Orkin Quote: "To properly discuss a topic such as this, takes quite a lot of exposure to quite a lot of pricey equipment."
You are 100% incorrect on the above statement.

I have or have had almost all the elite actions you speak of and they still have their "holes"even your Lonepeaks.
I seen more and have handled more of those than you ever will without question. With that said, generally most 60 degree talk are on Brownings because there are more in circulation. That's what most are familiar with.

There are many on this site that are "qualified"to see, feel, measure and calculate with the best. Maybe, just maybe don't discredit so easily?
We are all so "aware" that no one shoots as much as you. No one has high end, top tier equipment as you. No one comes on this site to promote their agenda more than you. Absolutely no one.

*There are 2 types of people at LRH, ones that come to learn and share and ones that come because they need to promote business. Both types are great in moderation.

 

[Mark37082]

This was a legitimate question by the OP. I realize opinions are always somewhat subjective. Everyone is free to provide their preference. Whether you are shooting a factory rifle off the rack or spending the big bucks on a full blown custom, all perspectives are welcomed here. I've tried and used both. I like both as long as I don't run into interference issues or other issues. Now if I was in the business of ultra high end rifles and training, I would promote what I am selling. There is nothing wrong with that. However, I would not belittle or dismiss their opinion. We can learn and grow in this wonderful world of LRH by participating and experimenting. Sorry for the soap box post.

 

[Greyfox]

 

[adam32+P]

WWJD? Probably a 60*...

 

[lancetkenyon]

Just my personal preference, I am a 90* guy. I have shot 10s of thousands of rounds behind almost every action maker out there. And still, EVERY time I shoot a 60* bolt, the first shot I think "Oh crap, why is primary extraction locked up?"
I don't think Tikka/Sako are any smoother than high quality 90*s. Defiance Deviant, any Kelbly, Bat, etc.

 

[waspocrew]

I bought a Terminus Zeus a few months back - the 60* bolt lift takes a little getting used to, but it is a very smooth action. My Bighorn TL3 is my current favorite 90* action (have Stiller, Seekins, and a Gunwerks GLR), in fact, just about to order another TL3 for a 22 Creed build.

All personal preference- go with what you like the most and makes you happy.

 

[Darryle]

I was originally planning on going with either a Defiance or Zermatt, but then I got to looking at the Terminus Kratos Lite. That is what prompted my question.

I currently have a build around a Defiance Anti that I really like and don't have any issues with clearance.

I ordered an a Defiance action from Pucker Factor Precision on Friday for the 25-280 Ackley. There will be another long action ordered for the 26-280 Ackley in the near future

I called and spoke to Defiance this morning and they were adamant that I would be happy with the action or they would make sure I was. Can't argue with that CS.

I haven't handled more than a couple of dozen "custom" actions and I couldn't verify that anything anyone has said is right or wrong, but I do put value in everyone's opinion, whether they are at the apex of pile or simply just expressing their thoughts.

I still would like to build around a Terminus Apollo Lite, probably a 223 to rectify my other rifle issue.

 

[Darryle]

I'm reminded of how many times people show up for training, never once having felt what actual smooth bolt lift and wonderous ergo's feel like, despite having experience with all manner of factory and custom actions. Every one of them though they knew, until they were handed something that made them realize they didn't know.

***************************
When someone is here, I can hand things to them and they can feel for themselves.

That is a trip I am willing to make. I have travel benefits so airfare is cheap for me. I wouldn't benefit from the training, I am too old and my long range hunting days are behind me. I just want a few nice custom rifles to hunt with and I am not afraid to ask for an education on subjects I know just enough about to stumble my way thru.

 

[Danehunter]

WeiserBucks is KEERECT. Without some VERY advanced CNC machines it's nearly impossible to have full contact with all 9 lugs on a Weatherby action. Do what I describe below and re-set the headspace by moving the barrel back a few thousandths of an inch.

In truth Weatherby could/should make their actions with the bolt lugs having enough interference with the barrel recesses that they can add medium then fine grit paste to make ALL the lugs mate fully. This could be done by machines working the bolts but yeah, it's and time-consuming more costly to do that.

Even with the massive rear "lug" of the bolt on my .308 Savage 99 lever gun it did not have full contact with the receiver. That was before I coated it with medium then fine grit paste at the bolt's rear then working the action. NOW it has full contact but, yeah, the headspace is now larger.
No problem because I'm switching to a new octagonal barrel chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor which will be headspaced properly.