6.8 Western

[.300 Dakota]

Well, I may as well throw my $0.02 in...

They are introducing new cartridges trying to sell rifles. And they can't sell rifles because there isn't any ammo or components to load them with. If they'd spend the money opening up another ammo plant so regular Joe's that make up 98% of the hunters that shoot said ammunition can get their hands on it when they wanted/needed it, they would be selling plenty of guns with chambers already in existence. And what's more, when they get this new cartridge and the corresponding rifles built, who's going to make the brass and ammo, Winchester? Have any of you tried any Winchester brass within say the past 20 years? I know guys on here are all about Lapua, Peterson, ADG, and the other new one that has popped up (starts with an A) because you only want the best. Winchester is why you now use all these new makes of brass and why they came into existence - there was a need! There isn't a bag of Winchester brass I've bought since I started reloading 20 years ago that I didn't have to scrap a few cases (at least) because they had splits down the side, dents in the shoulder and body deep enough to seem unsafe, splits in the neck, rims so inconsistent half won't fit in the appropriate shell holder, and the mouths are always so dented up sometimes you have to start with a sizing button several caliber sizes small to get it in and start opening up the mouth - not to mention horrendous weight variation through a bag. Even their new ammo is junk! Has ANYBODY got their "Deer Season" ammo to group under an inch yet? Heck, an inch and a quarter?? It's all JUNK!

Winchester use to make some GOOD brass and ammo! I got ahold of a lot of ancient 30-06 brass to load for a few friends, and it has like next to 0 run-out, and NONE of the problems I mentioned above.

If they are going to go through with this, and I take it they have, they sure better put some better Quality Control measures and personnel in place or it will fail just like their WSSMs when no one else produced brass or ammo, and it's a shame because those little fat cartridges were superbly accurate! You just had to go through 3 bags of brass before you could find enough like cases for a group! Some of the rims (or groove beneath the rim) is off so much, they wouldn't fit in or extract from some of the custom chambers some of us run. They were lucky enough to get their WSMs to catch on and be produced by other makers, but they have been wanting in popularity since the advent of the Shermans, PRCs, and now RPM, Westerns, and who knows what else?! If they were really smart, they would have gone in with one of the newer, better, American brass makers to make their components for loading ammo. And if they did this and I'm not aware, then forgive this rant. I normally stay under my rock, as I didn't even know what a 6.8 Western was until I read this thread.

Now if they want to invent something there's a niche for, they need to try looking in the 8mm or .358 realm, because everything else has been done to death. And then, they will have to get some reputable bullet maker to make new, longer, high BC bullets for these calibers because there aren't any, and that's why there are no new cartridges being produced for those. Without Berger's advent of the EOL and other Elite Hunter ammo, the 270 would still be stuck on that struggle bus (which it was until a couple years ago).

Heck, I even designed and have made my own .270 wildcat. It isn't designed for "long range hunting" by the standards here, though, so it isn't of interest to anyone other than the average Joe (98% of hunters). What it IS is a shortage-buster that allows you to get stellar hunting performance to 500 yards on deer-sized game while utilizing many of the .277 bullets that have fallen through the cracks of the mainstream, as well as ubiquitous brass by the best makers (and worst) and the ability to use either large or small rifle primers. It's lightweight, generates little recoil, and laser accurate to 500 with plenty of energy at that distance to take care of business. But it's nothing any of you will ever hear about because it's against the trend of the times and would be of no interest to anyone other than the guys like me with busted shoulders and necks that want as much performance as they can get and still be able to find components to load ammo with, while skipping the blast, recoil, and weight of the more aesthetically pleasing cartridges that propel keyboards on the pages of this forum. Not that it is a bad thing, it's just how things are. It's like a lust for gold. We were all in hopes of something better at some point, and then when it came out, we didn't want to give up the search because the thought there must be something more still... or better. Our cartridge lust is never satisfied, nor will it ever be unless we are scuttled back to the days of muskets and single barrel break actions. So that being said, as long as they keep throwing them out, we'll keep on buying and trying them... but this is only a short-term fix for the real problem. And if the real problem isn't dealt with, it won't matter what they produce.

 

[SSG Graybush]

Isn't the barrel twist rate for the 270 wsm 1-in-10 just like the 270 win? So despite it's flatter trajectory you are still limited in the choice of bullet weights and BC's available to it because 1-in-10 simply won't stabilize anything much above 160 grains for the .277 diameter bullet.

Yes the 270wsm is a 10T. And this 6.8 western is 8.5T I believe, whatever it is it will stabilize the 170 eol Berger. But thats erelavent. They went to less case and more bullet. That may make a great target round shooting high bc bullets with less recoil, like the 6.5 cm but its not the recipe for a great hunting round. There needs to be a happy medium between old and new school thinking. Old school was light and fast and low bc's, now its heavy and slow and higher bc's.
If you dont hunt over 650/700 yards the efficiency of the bc of the 6.8 western bullets wont help and it wont shoot as flat to 500 as the 270 wsm. Ive not seen all the spec's on the 6.8 but it doesnt seem to be a better hunting round. If I want to hunt at 700 to 1000 yards I have a 7mag 8T shooting 180 vld-h's at 2944 fps.
I considered building a LA 270wsm to shoot a 170 Berger but decided against it.
They would have done better making a 25 or 6.5 wsm in a XM action or a western in thoughs calibers in a SA. The 6.8 western does nothing for 75% to 80% of hunters over the 270 wsm. In fact it's less optimal.

 

[WYO300RUM]

My thoughts exactly. Ammo and reloading supplies are very difficult to find at these times. I recently jumped on the bandwagon and had a 6.5 PRC built for me and over the last six months I have been trying to build up my supply of ammo for it. I think I only have six boxes. I did find more but was solo and the store would only sell me two boxes at a time.

I am interested in this cartridge for two reasons. They are as follows:
I am a huge fan of the .270 and have killed everything between a jack rabbit to a moose with it.
I want something a little heavier than my 6.5 prc for elk.

I will be watching this cartridge over the next few years to see how it survives in the market. If ammo and reloading supplies are not an issue, I will purchase one. Not that I need another rifle but its what I do.

Your last line I agree with. Some people don't care if a new cartridge is needed or is a duplicate of another or whatever. Some people just want to try something new. Something different to reload for. Not that it's needed. Just bored. It's why we all have multiple rifles. An addiction. We just want something different once in awhile. I just did it with a CVA Cascade in 350 Legend. Nice rifle. Camo syn. Stock with adjustable spacer. Threaded barrel. Cerakoted. 70% bolt. 5 rd. detachable mag. Nice rings and picatinney mounts. Cheap Konus scope that not going to use anyway. Their first center fire rifle. Not a Bergara but made in Spain. Did I need it ? Nope. I looked at ammo case in Walmart. Totally empty except for 8 boxes of Win. 350 Legend. Hmmm... I ended up with every one. Only site I found that had brass was Blue Collar Reloading. 100 cases shipped. $35.00. Factory ammo was $21.00 a box. I now reload for 15 rifle and 10 pistol cartridges . Hey, what's another ? Right now the sporting goods store I work at part time , factory 300 win mag. $51.00 to $65.00 box . 223 and 9mm fly off shelves. Any pistol ammo, gone. 30.06 and 30-30 same. Powder goes fast. Primers, lol ! Now shipments of bullets and brass are slim. Unsure times are upon us. I'm sitting well on supplies. I started stocking up in 1998 when the Clinton primer shortage hit. I said never again. Now, onto finishing reading this thread .

 

[Wild_Bill]

The theory was there but in reality it does not give any real advantage.
Its not a short action it's a medium action.
When you compare ballistics to 1000 yards the 150gr 270wsm shoots flatter and less wind drift than the 6.8 the only advantage with the 6.8 is 25 ft lbs more energy at 1000 yards with the 165 lr ab. All other loads perform worse than most other cartriges. The new smaller case does not have the capacity to take advantage of the new high bc projectiles.

 

[SSG Graybush]

The theory was there but in reality it does not give any real advantage.
Its not a short action it's a medium action.
When you compare ballistics to 1000 yards the 150gr 270wsm shoots flatter and less wind drift than the 6.8 the only advantage with the 6.8 is 25 ft lbs more energy at 1000 yards with the 165 lr ab. All other loads perform worse than most other cartriges. The new smaller case does not have the capacity to take advantage of the new high bc projectiles.

Attached is my 270 wsm load with a 130 gr classic hunter at 3089 and a 6.8 western at 2835 with a 170 eol both at 7500 ft

 

[Deleted member 115360]

What bullet weights are you using there for that comparison? Looks like different weights to me.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Well, I have a 1-8.5 twist 270 Weatherby barrel and an action at the Smith right now, waiting to be reamed for 170gr loads. I ordered that barrel in April last year, and that bullet already existed. I didn't have to fistfight anyone to get that fast twist barrel, and I am far from an innovator, so...... yeah, nothing about this is original. Now, I may own one 6 months from now, but I won't pretend they re-invented the wheel.

The factoryv150gr 270wsm compared to the 6.8 Western

Watch some of the you tube reviews.
It was realy telling when Ron Spooler compared cartriges he had the 270wsm on the table but never compared there ballistics just other older or smaller cases.

What bullet weights are you using there for that comparison? Looks like different weights to me.

 

[SSG Graybush]

What bullet weights are you using there for that comparison? Looks like different weights to me.

I used my 270 wsm load. A 130 gr Berger CH starting at 3089 fps vs a 6.8 western with a 170 gr Berger eol going 2835 fps. I looked up the 6.8 western pushes a 175 Seirra TGK at 2835 fps and used that. Even if the 170 goes 2850 to 2875 fps its still no better then the 270 wsm with a 130 gr at longer ranges and not as flat at 500 as the 270 wsm. The 6.8 western is as flat at 500 as the 300 wm or 7mag.
After looking into this round more and running the #'s I am even less impressed.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Have a look at 150gr 270wsm loads that extends the ballistics

 

[Deleted member 115360]

I used my 270 wsm load. A 130 gr Berger CH starting at 3089 fps vs a 6.8 western with a 170 gr Berger eol going 2835 fps. I looked up the 6.8 western pushes a 175 Seirra TGK at 2835 fps and used that. Even if the 170 goes 2850 to 2875 fps its still no better then the 270 wsm with a 130 gr at longer ranges and not as flat at 500 as the 270 wsm. The 6.8 western is as flat at 500 as the 300 wm or 7mag.
After looking into this round more and running the #'s I am even less impressed.

After looking at your comparison data, it is even more clear that this cartridge fixed 0 problems.

 

[gator378]

No, but my point is that actual innovation was a rocket from the 1850's to 1950's, and since then, all we've done is spend $Billions to squeeze single digit% performance out of the stuff that is older than any of us. I get caught up in this stuff just like anyone else, and then sometimes when I compare downrange m.v. and energy of the thousands of cartridges available to us, I acknowledge how much mental masturbation it all is. When almost every modern cartridge is pushing 1,500+ fps at 500y+, and 90%+ of animals are taken inside of 100y, where you could have killed them with a decent crossbow, it can all be much ado about nothing. There is no way to quantify or prove this, but I'd be willing to bet that frontal diameter is almost never the factor as to whether or not a game animal dies, (accepting huge swings, like, don't shoot an elephant with a .223). If you were able to put a fatal shot into the vitals of a deer with your 7rm, for example, and you were magically able to repeat the same shot under the same conditions with a 6.5cm, or a 243, or a 300wm, or just about anything in these middle of the road calibers, the result would be the same. You could shoot an animal with this 6.8 western, or a 6.5 prc, or a century plus old .270, and nothing will change at all. Now, I'm guilty of buying every new thing that comes out just like many of you, but I am honest about the lack of real difference. Now excuse me while I go back to building my 6mm arc ar, because I definitely needed a 3rd 6mm cartridge that performs worse than the .243 and .240 Weatherby I already own, but fits in an ar, and when compared to the 6.5 grendel ar I already own, it ummm, does something better, maybe.

well said +1 Shot placement is probably more important than caliber. I talked to a teacher who spent a couple of years teaching Eskimos. He said they thought the 243 was a powerful cartridge and even hunted polar bears with it with sucess. this teacher was an excellent shot.

 

[DavidA]

We have entered crazy time for cartridges. 6.8 Western, 6.5 PRC etc, etc, etc. I built what this is all about 3 years ago. Pulled my stock barrel off my 270 win and put a McGowen Precision 1-8 twist 26" barrel. Shoot 170 gr Bergers at 2,930 fps using RL26. You can get 270 brass everywhere. I really do not get it. It's all public relations and marketing. Same thing 260 Rem only failed because of lack of marketing. Hands down the 260 Rem is a better cartridge IMHO. I have a 260 Rem set up as well. Roll your own if the market does not support it. This is just all about looks I think more than anything else.

Now something game changing is the 277 Furry. The ballistics performance is ridiculous. It makes sense as a mountain packing riffle, small, light and powerful. Unfortunately pushing 80,000 psi, I would think your barrel life would be fairly limited. I looked at Speacial cases made out of stronger alloy brass and $4.95 per case, couple that with limited barrel life and it is pretty expensive to shoot. Glad to see more people entering the long and heavy .277 market though.

 

[DoneNOut]

My thoughts exactly. Ammo and reloading supplies are very difficult to find at these times. I recently jumped on the bandwagon and had a 6.5 PRC built for me and over the last six months I have been trying to build up my supply of ammo for it. I think I only have six boxes. I did find more but was solo and the store would only sell me two boxes at a time.

I am interested in this cartridge for two reasons. They are as follows:
I am a huge fan of the .270 and have killed everything between a jack rabbit to a moose with it.
I want something a little heavier than my 6.5 prc for elk.

I will be watching this cartridge over the next few years to see how it survives in the market. If ammo and reloading supplies are not an issue, I will purchase one. Not that I need another rifle but its what I do.

My man, I want a 6.5 PRC so bad in the Springfield Armory Waypoint rifle but I see if I buy the gun I won't have ammo till we get another Republican president...LOL. I just want a damned 243 right now and having a hell of a time finding components.

 

[WYO300RUM]

We have entered crazy time for cartridges. 6.8 Western, 6.5 PRC etc, etc, etc. I built what this is all about 3 years ago. Pulled my stock barrel off my 270 win and put a McGowen Precision 1-8 twist 26" barrel. Shoot 170 gr Bergers at 2,930 fps using RL26. You can get 270 brass everywhere. I really do not get it. It's all public relations and marketing. Same thing 260 Rem only failed because of lack of marketing. Hands down the 260 Rem is a better cartridge IMHO. I have a 260 Rem set up as well. Roll your own if the market does not support it. This is just all about looks I think more than anything else.

Now something game changing is the 277 Furry. The ballistics performance is ridiculous. It makes sense as a mountain packing riffle, small, light and powerful. Unfortunately pushing 80,000 psi, I would think your barrel life would be fairly limited. I looked at Speacial cases made out of stronger alloy brass and $4.95 per case, couple that with limited barrel life and it is pretty expensive to shoot. Glad to see more people entering the long and heavy .277 market though.

The only brass and ammo available I see on every site is 260 Rem. and 224 Valkyrie. Surprised about 260 Rem..