6.5 saum

[MontanaRifleman]

I have cycled through 3 barrels in 6.5 WSM and am getting another replaced at the riflesmith as we speak.


One of my WSMs is nitrocarburized and the other is not. I treat all bullets with HBN which all but eliminates copper fouling.

What load/velocity are you running through them? How many rounds are the barrels lasting to what degree of accuracy? And is the nitrocarburizng increasing barrel life?

 

[65WSM]

I like 65.5 to 66.5 gr of Retumbo with magnum primers behind 140 gr bullets and up to 68 gr of Retumbo (3170 fps) with 130 gr Nosler ABs (3280 fps). I have 2 different barrels, twists and lengths. I will send you my spreadsheet if you send me your e-mail. A full 3200 with 140 gr bullets is tough on primer pockets. I come from a background of pre-64 Model 70s in .264 Win Mag. I had two of them and wore out the factory and replacement Kriegers. The .264 Win Mag holds about 5 grains more powder to get the same pressure and will go faster than the 6.5 WSM in the same barrel. I wish I had Retumbo when I had my pre-64s instead of surplus 4831. I did back flips when Reloader 22 became available. The best they ever did was 1.25" at 100 yards with 3-9X scopes.

I have not worn out a nitrocarburized barrel yet. I am between 500 to 600 rounds so far through my one nitrocarburized barrel in this caliber. No signs of damage yet. It is fun to clean -- so smooooth. I can get under 4 inch groups at the 550 length of my club range with a 8-32X56 Black Diamond. My synthetic stocked (MPI) Model 70 weighs 7.6 pounds with a 2.5-10X32 scope and sling ready to hunt. Add more weight for a load development scope. The Highwall weighs 2 pounds more but some of that is scope.

I have a 6.5-284 that is in the Riflesmiths vise today to be rebarreled. The current Bartlein 5-r gain twist is being replaced at about 850 rounds. I think that 1200 rounds is optimistic if they go at hunting speed. I can get 130 ABs in the 6.5-284 to go just as fast as out of the 6.5 WSM with VV N560 powder. I will nitrocarburize the replacement barrel.

 

[65WSM]

I like 65.5 to 66.5 gr of Retumbo with magnum primers behind 140 gr bullets and up to 68 gr of Retumbo (3170 fps) with 130 gr Nosler ABs (3280 fps). I have 2 different barrels, twists and lengths. I will send you my spreadsheet if you send me your e-mail. A full 3200 with 140 gr bullets is tough on primer pockets. I come from a background of pre-64 Model 70s in .264 Win Mag. I had two of them and wore out the factory and replacement Kriegers. The .264 Win Mag holds about 5 grains more powder to get the same pressure and will go faster than the 6.5 WSM in the same barrel. I wish I had Retumbo when I had my pre-64s instead of surplus 4831. I did back flips when Reloader 22 became available. The best they ever did was 1.25" at 100 yards with 3-9X scopes.

I have not worn out a nitrocarburized barrel yet. I am between 500 to 600 rounds so far through my one nitrocarburized barrel in this caliber. No signs of damage yet. It is fun to clean -- so smooooth. I can get under 4 inch groups at the 550 length of my club range with a 8-32X56 Black Diamond. My synthetic stocked (MPI) Model 70 weighs 7.6 pounds with a 2.5-10X32 scope and sling ready to hunt. Add more weight for a load development scope. The Highwall weighs 2 pounds more but some of that is scope.

I have a 6.5-284 that is in the Riflesmiths vise today to be rebarreled. The current Bartlein 5-r gain twist is being replaced at about 850 rounds. I think that 1200 rounds is optimistic if they go at hunting speed. I can get 130 ABs in the 6.5-284 to go just as fast as out of the 6.5 WSM with VV N560 powder. I will nitrocarburize the replacement barrel.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I like 65.5 to 66.5 gr of Retumbo with magnum primers behind 140 gr bullets and up to 68 gr of Retumbo (3170 fps) with 130 gr Nosler ABs (3280 fps). I have 2 different barrels, twists and lengths. I will send you my spreadsheet if you send me your e-mail. A full 3200 with 140 gr bullets is tough on primer pockets. I come from a background of pre-64 Model 70s in .264 Win Mag. I had two of them and wore out the factory and replacement Kriegers. The .264 Win Mag holds about 5 grains more powder to get the same pressure and will go faster than the 6.5 WSM in the same barrel. I wish I had Retumbo when I had my pre-64s instead of surplus 4831. I did back flips when Reloader 22 became available. The best they ever did was 1.25" at 100 yards with 3-9X scopes.

I have not worn out a nitrocarburized barrel yet. I am between 500 to 600 rounds so far through my one nitrocarburized barrel in this caliber. No signs of damage yet. It is fun to clean -- so smooooth. I can get under 4 inch groups at the 550 length of my club range with a 8-32X56 Black Diamond. My synthetic stocked (MPI) Model 70 weighs 7.6 pounds with a 2.5-10X32 scope and sling ready to hunt. Add more weight for a load development scope. The Highwall weighs 2 pounds more but some of that is scope.

I have a 6.5-284 that is in the Riflesmiths vise today to be rebarreled. The current Bartlein 5-r gain twist is being replaced at about 850 rounds. I think that 1200 rounds is optimistic if they go at hunting speed. I can get 130 ABs in the 6.5-284 to go just as fast as out of the 6.5 WSM with VV N560 powder. I will nitrocarburize the replacement barrel.

Thanks for the info. I am sending my 6.5 WSM barrel and action, along with a couple of other barrels and actions for nitriding this week. I hope the benefits are as good as I'm reading. Sounds like it's working good for you. What company did you use for your treatment? I'll PM you my email.

 

[Kurt]

See the thing is, 'sub moa' is not at all accurate...
Loaded up to potential, I'm sure the 6.5saum from a GAP gun is truly accurate(well under 1/2moa) -AND THERE IS GREATLY REDUCED BARREL LIFE THERE.
Don't trick yourself, pick one or the other, and accept that there is a price for everything.

George (owner of GAP) won the snipers hide cup with 3000+ rounds down the tube so I would say that is loaded to potential. He has shot lots of comps with it so it has not been babied at all seems that bbl life is not that reduced

 

[Mikecr]

Loaded to potential when he shot so well with it -no doubt.
NOT when breaking a 'world 26cal barrel life record' with it..
Just sayin

It has the same H20 capacity as a 6.5x284.
Over the decades many many have competed with a 6.5x284, and it's done well.
Accurate Barrel life: 1200rnds
Unless his barrels are Melonite treated, I doubt he's bettering this.

Even the mighty mouse 6.5x47L will not produce beyond ~2000 rounds of accurate barrel life.
Just watch the numbers come in..

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Kurt,

I do not for one second doubt that George won that competion with said barrel and said round count.

That said, as an innocent bystander and student of science, how is it that two different cartridges of same caliber and capacity have such huge differences in historical/predicted barrel life? Being a holder of a couple of science degrees and generally disposed to that sort of thinking, it greatly puzzles me.

As a student of science, I also know that many variables can confuse the apparent result and so it is necessary to exercise controls over the experiment.

Based on my limited knowledge of the shooting sports and laws of nature, I would say one, there are always exceptions to the rule and two, the observed outcomes resulting from the laws of nature are hard to deny.

Bottom line..... there is usually no free lunch If you like the 6.5 WSM, go for it. but if you are of the opinion that you are going to get 3000 rounds of high performance accuracy, be prepared to be disappointed.

I am going the 6.5 WSM route and completely understand what's expected. That said. I'm hedging my bets on a treatment that may increase my expectations.... but am prepared for whatever

 

[Skyking]

For you guys that wont read through the Snipershide post to answer all your questions. New GAP Extreme Hunter in 6.5 SAUM

Here is what George from GA Precision has to say from page 5 from the thread.

Originally Posted by 7mmRM I'm very skeptical. I did the hot rod 6.5 some time ago. (264WM) 600 rnds it was done. That said, I am quite intrigued with this 6.5 SAUM and seeing for myself if it lives up to claims posted here. Anyone care to give me neck and FB dimensions, I'll get a reamer ordered today....

I was too at first, after seeing a lot of 6.5x284's go south at 900 and a couple 6.5 WSM's go south at 500-600 I started thinking. Powder Burning does not cause the heat that destroys barrels its the Pressure. The Pressure causes the extreme heat that's necessary to burn and heatcheck the barrel. Kinda like how they make carbon turn to diamond's Pressure.

Anyway the 6.5 Saum case is near perfect because it allows you to throw a 6.5 140gr at 3100 at about 53,000 PSI with H1000. Other cases have too much capacity or not enough. The Saum case was picked not because its magical , because it is the perfect fit. In a perfect world I would take the the RCM case and shorten it a tad and give it a longer neck. That would truly be perfect!!!!


At any rate the 6.5 Saum is working as we thought it would. Here is a thought to those that are still having problems understanding it. Shoot next to a 6mm REM, 243 ETC, any caliber that has a 63,000-68,000 PSI SAMI pressure. as soon as the rifle is fired eject the case into you hands. Those of you that have had a 223 brass land on you or go down your shirt know what will happen, it will burn the crap out of you. The 6.5 Saum with the load im talking about with come out only very warm and you can grasp it tightly with your hand without getting burned. Keeping chamber pressures low not only keeps your barrel from puking early its also easy on your rifle and the components , IE Brass lasts a long time!!

Yes if you hot rod this caliber IE a load of 60.5 grains 4831 SC and the 130VLD at 3400fps you will be pushing 68,000 PSI and toast the barrel in 600-800 rounds.

But the same goes to the guys trying to take the 260 Rem and shoot the 140's at 3000 they are at or near 68,000 PSI and will also toast their barrels early.


Just some Afternoon Info.

 

[Kurt]

Loaded to potential when he shot so well with it -no doubt.
NOT when breaking a 'world 26cal barrel life record' with it..
Just sayin

It has the same H20 capacity as a 6.5x284.
Over the decades many many have competed with a 6.5x284, and it's done well.
Accurate Barrel life: 1200rnds
Unless his barrels are Melonite treated, I doubt he's bettering this.

Even the mighty mouse 6.5x47L will not produce beyond ~2000 rounds of accurate barrel life.
Just watch the numbers come in..

take the time to read the thread unless you are saying the man is a liar it is spelled out pretty clearly that the saum will break the 26 cal bbl life record with ease ........just sayin

 

[C.O. Shooter]

I have been following this thread and the one on snipers hide. Both are very interesting to say the least. A friend at work has a rifle built by GAP (.308) and as of last week sent his .308 back to GAP to have it redone/chambered in the 6.5 SAUM. I have no dealings with GAP, but many others have. George who I believe is the owner operates a reputable business and therefore I would "assume" is a reputable person. My question is, what does a person like that have to gain by making false claims of a round count through a rifle barrel. What he is saying makes sense about the pressure! The speed and accuracy are there with out all the pressure.

My 6.5-284 is recently completed (waiting to pick it up) but if I would have know about the 6.5 SAUM earlier on, I would have tried one out. The only thing I do not like about the 6.5 SAUM would the case preparation. Maybe down the road when my 6.5 goes south, they may be producing brass for the SAUM.

 

[65WSM]

Any 6.5 that can throw a 140 gr bullet at 3100 with 53,000 of pressure would have a looooooong barrel. I just yesterday shot 62.5 gr of H-1000 behind 140 MKs (HBN coated) and got 2914 fps (28 inch barrel). This was not maximum but I will bet my pressure was above 53000. The case was the .270 WSM necked down to 6.5.

I just don't believe 3100 fps.

 

[Kurt]

24" bbl and so you are calling George a liar take the time and read this it spells it out very simply it does what he claims.

New GAP Extreme Hunter in 6.5 SAUM

 

[MontanaRifleman]

First off, I'm not calling anyone a liar. That said, there are some things that have been said that I am having a hard time with.

Anyway the 6.5 Saum case is near perfect because it allows you to throw a 6.5 140gr at 3100 at about 53,000 PSI with H1000. Other cases have too much capacity or not enough. The Saum case was picked not because its magical , because it is the perfect fit. In a perfect world I would take the the RCM case and shorten it a tad and give it a longer neck. That would truly be perfect!!!!

1 - I'm a little skeptical that 53,000 psi of H1000 in a 6.5 SAUM is pushing a 140 @ 3100 fps. Is there any Quickload data on that?

2 - I don't buy "the perfect fit" business. If you go to a larger case, like let's ay the 6.5 WSM, You will on average get higher velocities with more powder at equal pressure. Example. I own both a 300 WSM and a 300 RUM. When I load those cartridges to equal pressures the RUM will produce at least 300 fps more velocity than the WSM. If i wanted to extend barrel life in the 300 RUM I could reduce charge and pressure to much lower than the WSM to achieve the same velocity. The charge itself would still be greater, but the pressure would be much lower. Point being, there is nothing "magical" about the "fit" of the SAUM case.

Now reducing the load and pressure will increase barrel life, and it might even do it exponentially when you get down to certain levels. I really don't know how all that plays out. But I do know that bigger case = more velocity with equal pressure.

Edited

 

[MontanaRifleman]

24" bbl and so you are calling George a liar take the time and read this it spells it out very simply it does what he claims.

New GAP Extreme Hunter in 6.5 SAUM

Kurt,

Are you calling 6,5 WSM a liar? Are you saying he should just keep quiet and not share his info? Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil?