6.5 Creedmor- the Holy Grail?

[BigGrizz]

For the same reason other metric cartridges took a long time to catch on here. There has been a lot of resistance against anything European/Metric among hunters in the US pretty much up until remington introduced the 7RM.

The .264wm was doomed by a handful of snotty anti magnum writers and to the lower quality barrel steel available in that era.

While at the same time the 300 and 338WM were accepted? I doubt that was the case. The 7mm Rem Mag is widely accepted as one of America's most popular cartridges and has been for decades as well as being credited for the poor market performance of the 264WM. The 6.5mm/.264 caliber itself has received little fanfare in comparison to other calibers, let alone individual cartridges. The reason the 6.5 never caught fire is it attempts to a fill a void that never needed to be filled, nor can it be filled. It really has nothing to do with ballistics, but at the same time it does.

As many are beholden to the conventions of using appropriate calibers fo rate job, the 6.5 in any variation is not appropriate for anything other than deer-sized game. Many varmint hunters prefer smaller calibers for coyotes, prairie dogs, chucks, foxes and the like. 30cal cartridges are hardly overkill for pig-sized game and above. The same is likely true for 338s. We in the U.S. tend to have the ability and inclination to use something more appropriate for the job.

The cartridge seems to be a great paper killer and has pumped new life into competitive shooting. It's really great for the sport and industry. However, the 6.5/.264 is not the be-all end-all when held against the standard bearers of the past. It's not a heavy game cartridge by any stretch, and even we on this long range forum regularly advise 6.5CM/260Rem style cartridge shooters to limit shot distance on bigger game. Are there better 1k cartridges? I would wager definitely yes. Better deer cartridges? Depends on the rifle platform and the geography to be hunted- I'd say a marlin lever gun in 30-30 would do the trick in many instances, but so would a 308.

The 6.5/.264 in any case variation- in terms of marketing especially -is an attempt to have one gun for everything. If it wasn't then people would not be repeatedly asking "Is a 6.5CM suitable for elk?, Can I kill an elk with a 260Rem?". I think that is the major rub that people are becoming aggravated with.

This post isn't as thorough as what I'd like, or what I feel provides the topic the amount of articulation that it deserves, but I think it gets to the point of why so many are tired of hearing about 6.5CM and 6.5/.264 in general. There's nothing new about it or what it does. It's really just new to North America and there are practical reasons why.

 

[WildRose]

While at the same time the 300 and 338WM were accepted? I doubt that was the case. The 7mm Rem Mag is widely accepted as one of America's most popular cartridges and has been for decades as well as being credited for the poor market performance of the 264WM. The 6.5mm/.264 caliber itself has received little fanfare in comparison to other calibers, let alone individual cartridges. The reason the 6.5 never caught fire is it attempts to a fill a void that never needed to be filled, nor can it be filled. It really has nothing to do with ballistics, but at the same time it does.

As many are beholden to the conventions of using appropriate calibers fo rate job, the 6.5 in any variation is not appropriate for anything other than deer-sized game. Many varmint hunters prefer smaller calibers for coyotes, prairie dogs, chucks, foxes and the like. 30cal cartridges are hardly overkill for pig-sized game and above. The same is likely true for 338s. We in the U.S. tend to have the ability and inclination to use something more appropriate for the job.

The cartridge seems to be a great paper killer and has pumped new life into competitive shooting. It's really great for the sport and industry. However, the 6.5/.264 is not the be-all end-all when held against the standard bearers of the past. It's not a heavy game cartridge by any stretch, and even we on this long range forum regularly advise 6.5CM/260Rem style cartridge shooters to limit shot distance on bigger game. Are there better 1k cartridges? I would wager definitely yes. Better deer cartridges? Depends on the rifle platform and the geography to be hunted- I'd say a marlin lever gun in 30-30 would do the trick in many instances, but so would a 308.

The 6.5/.264 in any case variation- in terms of marketing especially -is an attempt to have one gun for everything. If it wasn't then people would not be repeatedly asking "Is a 6.5CM suitable for elk?, Can I kill an elk with a 260Rem?". I think that is the major rub that people are becoming aggravated with.

This post isn't as thorough as what I'd like, or what I feel provides the topic the amount of articulation that it deserves, but I think it gets to the point of why so many are tired of hearing about 6.5CM and 6.5/.264 in general. There's nothing new about it or what it does. It's really just new to North America and there are practical reasons why.

The WM's were not metric cartridges and did not get the bad press as "barrel burners".

The 7Rm never got tagged as a "barrel burner" and remington did a great job of marketing it.

The reason the 6.5's started taking off is mainly that the 6.5g and 6.5L started coming out in AR platforms early on and the .260 soon followed.
Then came along the competitions in which the high BC's of the 6.5's and low recoil quickly added to their popularity.

No magic, just timing and marketing.

 

[guide4u]

I am working on a 264 win mag now that is to be a long range wolf rifle. I think it is a good size and weight with the 140 gr. for all range on that size predator. Maybe smack a coyote or two also. Could see the CM doing just fine also.

 

[djm670]

The WM's were not metric cartridges and did not get the bad press as "barrel burners".

The 7Rm never got tagged as a "barrel burner" and remington did a great job of marketing it.

The reason the 6.5's started taking off is mainly that the 6.5g and 6.5L started coming out in AR platforms early on and the .260 soon followed.
Then came along the competitions in which the high BC's of the 6.5's and low recoil quickly added to their popularity.

No magic, just timing and marketing.

And I would add that our generation and subsequent ones were force fed the metric system in schools. Which probably made the metric cartridges more acceptible. I know my 6 mm Remington was my first metric cartridge and I believe or think I chose it because of the slightly better speed and ballistics it had over the .243 shortly after the .243, .244 and subsequently the 6 mm remington were introduced. But I suspect my introduction to the metric system in school also played a large part in my acceptance of a metric cartridge.

Was there a marked need for the .243/6mm with the .257 roberts, .250-3000 savage and .25-06 already in exsistance?

I suspect the 6.5 creedmoor was adapted for similar reasons.... our need or want for new interesting rifles that filled a small nitch, long range target shooting, with minimum recoil and from that point it starting filling the need for a low recoiling hunting round; even for elk. It is a perfectly good elk cartridge to 500 or 600 yards with the right bullet based on the energy levels available at those distances.

The use of a .264 or 6.5 mm bullet on elk will never be settled by these incessant discussion, as those that shoot smaller diameter bullets will will not change their opinions based on these are arguements and their experience in the field, just as those that champion large magnums for elk will not change their opinions....

 

[FIGJAM]

Couldn't have said it better. A 140 grain bullet is in my opinion not sufficient for an elk. I have hunted Elk for 50 years and I believe you should use sufficient power to make a good clean and abrupt kill. Using 140 grain is not right.

I disagree. The elk in my avatar was killed with a 145gr eldx with my 270 wsm at 431 yards. Lots of dead elk with 140 class bullets from a lot of different cartridges. "I have hunted elk for (fill in the blank) years..." - lots of comments start that way like it is supposed to add credibility to whatever opinion follows. Lots of elk hunters don't know much about bullets, ballistics, or what different rounds are capable of. I have had the blessed opportunity to hunt with several such hunters over the years.

 

[bigngreen]

For the same reason other metric cartridges took a long time to catch on here. There has been a lot of resistance against anything European/Metric among hunters in the US pretty much up until remington introduced the 7RM.

The .264wm was doomed by a handful of snotty anti magnum writers and to the lower quality barrel steel available in that era.

What doomed the 264 was how it was throated in the original release, it was throated specifically for a dual diameter bullet so the throats were super short but the one an only bullet that would shoot was this bullet which was essentially a bore rider design. I know one guy who has one and you literally can not use anything but the original factory ammo. This is in contrast to how Hornady has brought chambering, they full on support them with after sales, actually just good business not really marketing.
I think the 264 would have crushed it if it had been released without it being designed to have only one source of bullets and ammo. All the guys I know from that era wanted one so bad they couldn't stand it and everyone said it sucked!

 

[djm670]

I disagree. The elk in my avatar was killed with a 145gr eldx with my 270 wsm at 431 yards. Lots of dead elk with 140 class bullets from a lot of different cartridges. "I have hunted elk for (fill in the blank) years..." - lots of comments start that way like it is supposed to add credibility to whatever opinion follows. Lots of elk hunters don't know much about bullets, ballistics, or what different rounds are capable of. I have had the blessed opportunity to hunt with several such hunters over the years.

And lots of elk have been killed by 130 grain .270 Winchesters.... probably been one of the most popular weight .270 bullets.

 

[Don A Parsons]

Yes, and lots of critters big and small have fallen to every caliber ever made.

The now 5th or 7th world record Grizzly Bear was taken with a 22 caliber old fashion rimfire long at point blank range.

Yes, it can sometimes work out, the 3rd or 4th largest Moose was taken with a British 303 at 35 yards.

There are 100's of thousands of firsts for every caliber.

The old school 30/06 has harvested more large game then all 200 cartridges combined because it has been around the longest of all firearms ever made on the planet.

It doesn't really matter what caliber, cartridge, case, powder, primer, optic or rifle it is... All bullets shot to range need a shooter to get it there.

5 to 10% dialed in firearm to 90 or 95% shooter,,, let's not forget that it takes 100% of human to get onto the critters,,, then the crap shoot of 50/50 if it's going to pan out.

Always more wrong then right since none of us know how things will play out until the trigger is pulled. It might be the best shot in the world,,, the critter its self will be the deciding factor at that point in time. Ha

My biggest challange is finding one close enough to plug. LOL

 

[Troutslayer2]

And I would add that our generation and subsequent ones were force fed the metric system in schools..

l

The horror. How dare they teach you the universal system of measuring things in every single country in the world except the USA?

 

[WildRose]

What doomed the 264 was how it was throated in the original release, it was throated specifically for a dual diameter bullet so the throats were super short but the one an only bullet that would shoot was this bullet which was essentially a bore rider design. I know one guy who has one and you literally can not use anything but the original factory ammo. This is in contrast to how Hornady has brought chambering, they full on support them with after sales, actually just good business not really marketing.
I think the 264 would have crushed it if it had been released without it being designed to have only one source of bullets and ammo. All the guys I know from that era wanted one so bad they couldn't stand it and everyone said it sucked!

Sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. I've shot modern ammo from the 90-Mid 2000 production in Pre 64 and XTR .264's without issue and know quite a few others who have as well.

The "barrel burner" bad press and the advent of the 7RM combined to relegate it to a cartridge for a small clique market.

 

[WildRose]

Yes, and lots of critters big and small have fallen to every caliber ever made.

The now 5th or 7th world record Grizzly Bear was taken with a 22 caliber old fashion rimfire long at point blank range.

Yes, it can sometimes work out, the 3rd or 4th largest Moose was taken with a British 303 at 35 yards.

There are 100's of thousands of firsts for every caliber.

The old school 30/06 has harvested more large game then all 200 cartridges combined because it has been around the longest of all firearms ever made on the planet.

It doesn't really matter what caliber, cartridge, case, powder, primer, optic or rifle it is... All bullets shot to range need a shooter to get it there.

5 to 10% dialed in firearm to 90 or 95% shooter,,, let's not forget that it takes 100% of human to get onto the critters,,, then the crap shoot of 50/50 if it's going to pan out.

Always more wrong then right since none of us know how things will play out until the trigger is pulled. It might be the best shot in the world,,, the critter its self will be the deciding factor at that point in time. Ha

My biggest challange is finding one close enough to plug. LOL

To the bolded, that just isn't accurate. It's true probably in the US with the 30-30 a close second but the .303 British has been in service since 1889 and the German 7.92x57/8mm Mauser since 1905. The 6.5x55 first went into service in 1894 but was developed in 1892.

The 06 was developed in 1906.

As for the rest, it's up to the idiot pulling the trigger to pick a bullet for the intended target and POA and not to take a poor shot or one at a range their not fully competent at.

Just don't exceed your capabilities and those of the equipment select the right bullet and POA and things will work out just fine over 90% of the time.

 

[James Runner]

I absolutely love my Creedmoor! That is all!!!!

 

[stx]

Sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. I've shot modern ammo from the 90-Mid 2000 production in Pre 64 and XTR .264's without issue and know quite a few others who have as well.

The "barrel burner" bad press and the advent of the 7RM combined to relegate it to a cartridge for a small clique market.

Totally agree with you WildRose.....I've shot modern factory ammo as well as, loaded multiple newer style bullets in my late 60s-early 70s Remington M700 264WM......with no problems and Excellent Results!

 

[FEENIX]

Here's a little food for thought:

Why has is taken so long for the .264/6.5mm to popularize in North America? With such a long, rich history of firearms development and ownership in the United States, why has it taken so long?

Because Al Gore did not create the internet on time ...



... and we're just realizing it's world wide web inter-connectivity impact.