Put a good expanding 140 class 6.5 bullet in the vitals at a minimum of 1800FPS/1000FP, (range equivalent) in a whitetail and you should have a very high probability, dead deer. IMO
6.5 Creedmoor: Maximum Lethal Range for Whitetail
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I've been shooting 140 gr Bergers out of my 6.5 Creedmoor and should get 1800 fps and bullet expansion out to about 800 yards depending on elevation. I have no intention shooting a deer at extended ranges with my Creedmoor. I've only shot one deer with it and it was about 200 yards. I feel really good about killing any deer within 400 yards with my Creedmoor and wouldn't hesitate on a 500 yard shot under ideal conditions. I've shot my Creedmoor at 1000 yards and I'm sure I could hit and likely kill a deer at 1000 yards but you won't ever see me attempting that shot with my Creedmoor. I've killed 3 deer in the last 3 years at 500+ yards I was using my 338 Lapua on 2 of them and my 300 win Mag on one. If I'm going to likely be in a situation that I will choose to take a longer shot, you won't ever see me packing my Creedmoor.
This is excellent advise. I shot a deer on a steep hillside by myself at about 550 yards with my 300 min mag. After the shot, I couldn't see what happened. The deer was on a steep open hillside that was mostly open. It completely vanished. After not being able to find the deer in my rifle scope and then binoculars for 5 minutes, I started picking apart the hillsides with my spotting scope. 15 minutes later, I was able to spot him 100+ yards downhill belly up. It turns out he was hit in shoulder and must have immediately started rolling downhill after the shot. This one turned out with a happy ending but if the shot was less than good, it would have been nice to have an extra set of eyes watching the vapor trail and deer after the shot. I've shot other deer and other big game animals at extended ranges and even though I've recovered every animal that I've shot more than 500 yards at immediately, I do think it is a very beneficial to have a spotter. There is a reason military snipers often work in teams.
I didn't read the whole thread, there was a lot of opinion about foot pound being a reliable guide which is not a consideration with modern equipment or loads. A good guide for 1999, but not today. Impact velocity for a given bullet plus accuracy is what you need.
Responding to the original inquiry I would advise going to the 140gr eldm vs the eldx. I have seen awesome performance out of the 143 eldx in 6.5 creedmoor. BIG mulies going down hard. However I feel the eldx is designed for cartridges in the 3000fps+ range. IE 6.5-284/Norma/260nosler/260 wm. It may shorten the effective range of the creedmoor because of its tougher construction.
We have consistently seen .5moa Out of the 6.5 creed in the 140 eldx factory and 1/4 to 1/3moa from the 140 eldm factory load across 11 guns and thousands of rounds. I have personally seen large mule deer not leave their beds at 565yds with the 140 eldm. I feel the 140 eldm is more closely engineered to the creedmoor speeds and I feel it extends the effective range.
Maximum range is obviously dependent on conditions foremost and skill second.
600yds is reasonable depending on conditions and experience. I personally would feel very comfortable on whitetail out to 800 in perfect conditions and 600 all the time. Big mules would be a case by case evaluation...I have video of one of those beasts shot at 60 yds with a 2.5" hole in and out from a 270 win Mag using a 175gr matrix shooting a 12" wide blood trail both sides getting up trying to heard does...for a few seconds at least.
Responding to the original inquiry I would advise going to the 140gr eldm vs the eldx. I have seen awesome performance out of the 143 eldx in 6.5 creedmoor. BIG mulies going down hard. However I feel the eldx is designed for cartridges in the 3000fps+ range. IE 6.5-284/Norma/260nosler/260 wm. It may shorten the effective range of the creedmoor because of its tougher construction.
We have consistently seen .5moa Out of the 6.5 creed in the 140 eldx factory and 1/4 to 1/3moa from the 140 eldm factory load across 11 guns and thousands of rounds. I have personally seen large mule deer not leave their beds at 565yds with the 140 eldm. I feel the 140 eldm is more closely engineered to the creedmoor speeds and I feel it extends the effective range.
Maximum range is obviously dependent on conditions foremost and skill second.
600yds is reasonable depending on conditions and experience. I personally would feel very comfortable on whitetail out to 800 in perfect conditions and 600 all the time. Big mules would be a case by case evaluation...I have video of one of those beasts shot at 60 yds with a 2.5" hole in and out from a 270 win Mag using a 175gr matrix shooting a 12" wide blood trail both sides getting up trying to heard does...for a few seconds at least.
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Starlite
Well-Known Member
Adam
isn't Energy, = mass x velocity. Y can't energy into the boiler room be a good indicator of humanely dispatching an animal?
isn't Energy, = mass x velocity. Y can't energy into the boiler room be a good indicator of humanely dispatching an animal?
M X V = momentum energy is M X (VxV)
It's just not a reliable guide anymore...when those "guidelines" were established a very small segment of the population were writing their experience in paper magazines with cup and core bullets in a very small variety of speed ranges, think gameking in a 270 or a "HUGE"caliber like the 338 win shooting 225gr noslers and were using Scopes that needed to be hit on the turret to "accept" the adjustment. A vortex pst would have been an elite military scope in those years...super secret even. today people have the meh's for it.
These Opinions are repeated as gospel and don't reflect modern construction or more importantly accuracy and reflect a willingness to shoot based on internet "knowledge" vs actually experiencing the conditions.
One of my favorite cartridges for northern Wisconsin whitetail shoots a 110 game king at 2400fps. It's only good to about 350 yds, but within that it's seriously like a grenade up the stink hole. Just works.
My local class 3 dealer told me it was a real skill to hit .5" prior to 2000. Guy had been building tack drivers for 30 years. After 2000 it was a sign of poor workmanship if you couldn't get a barrel to shoot .5"
Today I have personally sighted in multiple factory rifles from more than 3 manufacturers that have shot .3 Moa within the first box out to 1150 and beyond. I have personally shot a well bedded factory rifle to 1 moa at a mile. I fully expect that I will hit within 1/4 moa in reasonable conditions out to 600 in a creedmoor. My magnums expand that range way further.
I started experimenting with the creedmoor because I needed high volume in a light rifle for my son. I bought a ruger American and put a Nikon m223 on it. Went camping in eastern Washington and have video of two kids under 13 hitting sub .75moa at 800 in variable winds gusting from 6-20mph with good dope and a reasonable spotter and repeated many times with numerous shooters who had never shot more than 100yds.
Today, when you put the bullet in the place it belongs within the speed range it is designed to expand... bang flop..... least that's been my experience....stopped counting somewhere around 125 or so.
These Opinions are repeated as gospel and don't reflect modern construction or more importantly accuracy and reflect a willingness to shoot based on internet "knowledge" vs actually experiencing the conditions.
One of my favorite cartridges for northern Wisconsin whitetail shoots a 110 game king at 2400fps. It's only good to about 350 yds, but within that it's seriously like a grenade up the stink hole. Just works.
My local class 3 dealer told me it was a real skill to hit .5" prior to 2000. Guy had been building tack drivers for 30 years. After 2000 it was a sign of poor workmanship if you couldn't get a barrel to shoot .5"
Today I have personally sighted in multiple factory rifles from more than 3 manufacturers that have shot .3 Moa within the first box out to 1150 and beyond. I have personally shot a well bedded factory rifle to 1 moa at a mile. I fully expect that I will hit within 1/4 moa in reasonable conditions out to 600 in a creedmoor. My magnums expand that range way further.
I started experimenting with the creedmoor because I needed high volume in a light rifle for my son. I bought a ruger American and put a Nikon m223 on it. Went camping in eastern Washington and have video of two kids under 13 hitting sub .75moa at 800 in variable winds gusting from 6-20mph with good dope and a reasonable spotter and repeated many times with numerous shooters who had never shot more than 100yds.
Today, when you put the bullet in the place it belongs within the speed range it is designed to expand... bang flop..... least that's been my experience....stopped counting somewhere around 125 or so.
General RE LEE
Well-Known Member
I could always shoot my 7mm STW long range instead lol
Over the years, we have held many of these discussions, and as a 4+ decade handgun hunter, I have killed many animals with handloads that delivered 500ft/lbs or LESS energy at impact. Also, I have taken deer sized game at 6-800yds with a 6mm, 6mmAI and 25-06 using 100-110gr bullets. Supposedly by some, this should not be possible, but those animals are still just as dead today.
Bullet placement means far more to me than any number given to energy or velocity. Heck, when I lived in the South, we killed several deer with a 22LR and shots to the chest/heart area. YMMV
Bullet placement means far more to me than any number given to energy or velocity. Heck, when I lived in the South, we killed several deer with a 22LR and shots to the chest/heart area. YMMV
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Richard Teague
Active Member
I fell as far as ability to kill pretty far out there a real limiting factor is time of flight, takes half a second for your bullet to get 500-550 yards out there. It doesn't take much movement to turn your shot into something less than desired. I shot an antelope out at the 500 yard line in a huge swath of green sagebrush that in parts was up to 3 feet tall. When I shot the antelope dropped and my friend and I both saw it drop. Well after crossing a 20 foot deep ditch we came up and could not figure out exactly where in that huge area of identical sagebrush the antelope lay. Took three hours to find it and we climbed up on 3 different almost high enough points. While shooting way out there can be done it has it's limitations.
entoptics
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Energy is just a metric. It has no more value than the any other, and is just as subject to misinterpretation by the loose nut on the keyboard, as any other metric.
Stating that "energy is meaningless/everything", is just as foolish as stating that "shot placement is meaningless/everything". Reductio ad absurdum.
Stating that "energy is meaningless/everything", is just as foolish as stating that "shot placement is meaningless/everything". Reductio ad absurdum.
greenejc
Well-Known Member
Well, it happened. And the 'lope got on someone else's property and disappeared. It went about 500 yards and crossed a fence, and over a rise. I watched the shot hit through a 6X18 power scope, and saw the ribcage dimple from the impact. But I had to blood trail a Whitetail one time when a friend hit it with a double lung shot, and it went around 150 yards before we could shoot it again. It had bedded and tried to run. That was a 30-06 with 165 grain bullets, and he dropped a doe with it the next day at 305 yards on the spot. Some animals are like superman part of the time. By the way, I've been hunting and killing various animals since I was 16 years old, and that was 53 years ago. Give it enough time, and you'll run into super antelope/deer. I'll bet there are a number of people on this forum who have done so more than a few times. That's why I would limit my shots with what is a small to medium caliber rifle to 400yds or less. I wouldn't try for deer past 400 yards with my 25-06 either. It will do it most of the time, but when it kills but not right now, I then have to hunt through some rough country to find my animal.
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Well, I have the same 6.5 Tikka, this year I hunted also with both the LR Accubond 129 grain as well as the ELD-X 143 grain.
with both I shot an oryx, with the Accubond it was a 350m shot and it was just behind the shoulder and I had to walk a couple of kilometers before I found him and placed another shot to kill it.
with the ELD-X 143 grain I shot an oryx at 625m and it only ran for 50m before it collapsed down. So for me the 143 grain was the better bullet in performance wise but yet again I think it also depends on the shot placement but at 625m I had no problem on an oryx.
I don't know whitetail but I know an oryx is A tuff animal to kill.
