6.5-06 build but to AI it or Gibbs it or leave it like it is?

[antelopedundee]

L Sherm is correct. The reason i went to AI 40° cases years ago was not so much velocity increases ( which vary cartridge to cartridge), rather, it minimizes or stops case stretching. I haven't had to trim my AI cases in a long time.

When I built my 6.5-06AI many years ago I also had a .25-06. I wanted a 6.5-06, but the ammo being so similar in appearance to the .25-06, I opted for the AI version of the 6.5-06.

 

[antelopedundee]

Here's something I just came across, so I submit it here as a followup to my previous remark. I think I mentioned something similar in an earlier post on this thread, too. It's about what I was questioning about the need for the expanded AI case. While I'm still early in my development of load data for this cartridge, I am not filling even the non-AI, unexpanded case. I submitted earlier a list of the percent-full of various MAX loads and they weren't even at 100% for the unexpanded case. The only reason for blowing out a case into AI is to get more powder capacity. So if your case isn't full before the case shoulder gets blown out, it seems to me there is no point in blowing it out in the first place.

Now, in my case, I have to blow it out anyway, because that's what the chamber is in the rifle I bought.

However, I just bought a subscription at loaddata.com, and I was perusing some of the wildcat calibers I am fooling around with right now. There were several sets of load data listed for the 6.5mm-06. One I looked at had this very interesting tidbit of info:

Warning! Notes: Standard twist: 10". Special twist: 12", 14". The 6.5mm-06 Improved, sometimes called the .256-06 Improved is obviously not as efficient as the standard 6.5mm-06 which tends to indicate that the maximum efficient case capacity has been reached and that the 6.5mm-06 Improved is somewhat over bore capacity thus resulting in not quite as efficient cartridge as the standard version. The following loads bear this out because these were made in the same barrel, by first chambering the barrel for the standard 6.5mm-06, then later it was rechambered for the "improved" version so that a good comparison was obtained for the two cartridges in the same barrel. (Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders/Vol. 1 - P.O. Ackley, 1962)

According to this info, even PO Ackley himself discovered the same thing way back in 1962 that I was saying; if you aren't filling the standard case, then there's no point in having a chamber that blows the shoulder out for more powder capacity.

Another data point for the OP to consider.

So, you guys shooting the AI or other blown-out cases - are you in fact putting more powder in them than the original, non-blown-out case would hold? If so, then I can see considering the improved cartridges, otherwise I don't see the point.

I can get 61 grains of IMR7828 into a 6.5-06AI case and seat a 129 grain bullet over it. In a rifle with an eroded throat there aren't any pressure signs. If you use the Redding competition seating die they warn against compressed loads as the die is somewhat delicate. Course AFAIK Redding doesn't offer one in 6.5-06AI.

 

[montana west]

The 6.5/06 should be a commerical round and it is in europe called the 6.5 x65. I woud not do a thing to the original I have owned both and the standard shoot just a good with little reloading problems..I get 3020 with a 140 with 7828 and 7065 with the 130 a lot less powder than the improved.. ther is only 30 fps difference and I am sure your barrel will last a lot longer with the regular unless you are shooting 100 grainers at 3500.

 

[L.Sherm]

When I went to school 3150-3020= 130fps not 30.

 

[264MHC]

I would have to agree that to AI is definitely worth it. My 24" 6.5x55 maxed out at 2840ish with 140s and 2750 with 150 SMKs in the one ladder I did with them (they keyholed in a 9 twist). This was with RL 23 not quite compressed. My 25" Barreled 264 MHC which is a 35 degree improved version is easily running 2900 with 150s and RL 23 and the same velocity with 156 Bergers and VV N565. Not to mention the cases have only lengthened about .004 on average in 4 firings where as the standard Swede with all its taper had to be trimmed every firing to fit in the chamber.

 

[montana west]

L for sure you can get 3150-and you have a 40% sholder allows for higher pressure, however i think your accuracy will suffer.. the entire reason for the 6.5/06 is long range accuracy. anyway I had experience with the AI and it was O K, but too much trouble for anything under 7mm in the 06 case. Where the AI really shines is 338-358.

 

[L.Sherm]

No accuracy loss here, the 6.5x06AI that I put together for my nephew is stupid accurate.
I've got a 20BRAI that I shot the best group of my life, .078 at 100.
I've got 4 ackley cartridges and there all .5 M.O.A or better

 

[GLTaylor]

I agree with L Sherm. My 25/06aI and 6.5/06AI both shoot in .3 range at 100. Both shoot to.5 moa at 400. My 22/250AI and 6 BRA are scary accurate as well. Hope my 338 Sherman is finished in a couple of weeks. I have high expectations of it as well

 

[TAWS]

Finally got the rifle finished and it wound up with a 28" Hart SS light sendero fluted barrel. The Rem. long act. was blue printed and lapped in, set in a composite thumb hole Stocky's stock with the full length bedding block. I have loaded up some " get on paper rounds" and I did that. I am looking for suggestions that will let me reach 3000 to 3100 fps with a 140 grain accubond or a 143 gr. eldx. Does anyone have any exciting suggestions. I am using 25-06 remington new brass. This does not have to be a Match gun. Good to say 800 yds. at the very max.

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

So.............we were reloading while dinosaurs were still walking the earth. I'm close behind you in age, started reloading when I was fifteen-years old. I had a mentor who knew what he was doing, he taught me a great and fun hobby/sport. I have a gunsmith whose opinion I respect tremendously. He's built a few rifles for me, and he is about the build my son's Christmas present; .300WinMag. Recently I bought a Ruger 77 for a build I have been thinking about for a long time, and....like you I wanted a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved to complement my Ruger 77 in .270 Ackley Improved. With the .270 AI I really do not know the reason for a 6.5-06, but.......that's one of those things that we do sometimes; want not need. Anyway I asked him if he had a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved re3amer, he told me that he didn't. He said that he didn't because he did not believe there was enough difference between the 6.5-06 and the 6.5-06 AI to make it worth while. He also told me that he has a mountain rifle that he is in the process of building for himself and it too is in 6.5-06. I thought about his comment, did some research and found that there really isn't that much difference between the two, and.....for my shooting capabilities, and for what I am going to be hunting, maybe my gunsmith is right. I have the .270AI because I wanted to experience reloading for a wildcat cartridge. I like the .270 Winchester, and like the .270 AI and the performance that I get out of it. But.......its ballistics are right in line with the .270 Winchester Short Magnum, and.....there's "maybe" a bit more performance out of the .270 AI, but....for me personally not that much to make a difference between the two cartridges. Presently I am using Nosler brass to fireform/hydroform the .270AI, it's interesting and challenging, but I am only getting around four reloads out of my brass before I start finding loose primer pockets or necks starting to split. If I had it to do over again I'd do the .270WSM instead of the Ackley, only for the reason that I don't have to fireform brass. If you have a lot of time and would like to load for a wildcat cartridge then by all means go for it. For me personally I would prefer to have the option and...."capabilities" of purchasing brass off of the shelve and reloading it if I choose to. With this long and drawn out story, my next build with be a straight 6.5-06. Good luck with your build and enjoy it, at this age I have learned that this life is not a dress rehearsal.

MUCH better selection of bullets, for one.

 

[antelopedundee]

If you use '06 brass, you will end up with brass that is .015" shorter than it should be! This can cause carbon ring build up and other issues that can be avoided by just using 270 brass in the first place.
I would never use any 06 length brass to foem an A.I. or a Sherman.

The only/best way to start with 270 brass and end up with the desired length is to first use the fast powder method [say 20 grains of dirty bullseye] with maybe some tissue in the end. Then you will need to size it down to say .25 caliber because it may be too long to fit in the chamber and will have to go up into the rifling. In my case I tried sizing it down in a 6.5-06 die with no expander and that case would not easily chamber in my rifle. Once formed you can trim it back if necessary "if" it shortens up by the proper amount.

 

[CaptnC]

I've used both 25-06 and 270 Hornady brass. I thought I would have neck thickness, but after doing the neck thickness test I found they were the same.

So I'm assuming the "blank" each are made from is the same which is good because you can use either without any neck issues.

The only thing is the 270 is long and needs to be trimmed.

 

[montana west]

hello Kid: at 72 and with 50 years of experience with the 6.5s the regular 6.5/06 will do anything the 6.5 creed will do plus 200 more yards. really only the 264 win will out perform the regular 6.5/06. I have owned the AI but sold it and went to a 25" bbl 6.5/06 and my result were almost the same. and you can use 25/06 brass but i like 270 win brass trimed 1.5 mm or 62.5mm and they are more abundent.. and your can use h- 4831- r-25 or 26 H 1000 and IMR 7828 all will give you 3000 with the 140 , 3050 with the 130 and the nosler accubonds are real good long range killers .. dead and I mead really dead 130 # wolf that should have never been in Montana.

 

[TAWS]

Thank you Montana West
Could I trouble you for some upper mid range starting points outfor the Re26, H1000, and the IMR7828. I usually start at 10% below max and work up in 1/2 grain increments. The info would be greatly appreciated. I have been reloading since I was 20 yrs old with a 7 year break due to new wife and children and the U.S. Army, Viet Nam . I am 76 now and this is my last year of circuit shotgun competition. I am looking forward to enjoying my rifles. Thank you once again.