freddiej
Well-Known Member
tagging in on this with the option to write a very long post if I feel the need to.
460 Rowland
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AK49Norseman
Member
I too live in grizz country. Alaska is full of them. I've had many run ins, but never had to shoot in self-defense. I also carry my Springfield XD (Tactical 5") which I converted to 460 Rowland.
I have tried many other calibers in the past to include: S&W 500, S&W 460, Taurus 454 Casull, and a Taurus 44 Mag. While these wheel guns will all handle the chore of dispatching a grizz, their size and weight are noteworthy. Did I forget to mention they kick like mules? Good luck on a follow-up shot if being charged!
I was skeptical in thinking a 45 could push a 200-225 gr hard cast in excess of 1300 FPS. I also enjoy the semi-auto as it tames the recoil and allows for fast follow-up shots.
The kit from Rowland includes a new barrel, heavier buffer spring and a compensator to help cycling to feed the beast. I also recommend getting the magazine springs as well. They help with feeding issues by ensuring the next round is available. It cycles well (zero issues w/100+ rounds). As mentioned, you can also use 45 ACP
I also recommend Underwood ammo. Buffalo bore seems to be a tad smoky and leaves excess powder residue behind.
I use a Kenai chest rig under my bino holder with no issues, excellent retention while on ATVs/climbing mountains for goats/sheep. Still very easy to access.
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Possum Cop
Well-Known Member
I was told that the compensator and 24 pound spring helps take the recoil stress out of your frame. I run mine with it on and it is as easy to shoot as a .45 ACP.
I use a Dillon 550 press and I set up a set of dies just for the .460 and marked them.
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
I just ordered a kena
i just ordered a kenai chest holster for mine today
Where did you find that holster?
I have a 460 but do not have a holster that i can use as a chest holster i sure would like one though.
AK49Norseman
Member
Gunfighters Inc has some nice chest rigs:
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Obviously, there are many different opinions on this subject and after seeing this Video I have also had to re think my opinion. I decided to look at it from another angle and see if it changed my mind. When charged by a bear, do you want one well placed shot, or pump as many as you can in him before you become bear treats.
Having shot pistols with over 60 ft/lbs of recoil down to pistols with less than 1 ft/lb, there is a point that fast follow up shots are not possible and a charging bear can cover ground very fast. You would hope that you made the right choice and had the right weapon for the time. (Not sure there would be such a choice because every encounter could be different.
So If I encountered a bear that would give me time and distance for 2 or 3 well placed shots, I would always carry my 460 S&W . If I were not given this luxury, I would want some very fast and manageable. (Up to and including a machine pistol)
. So the decision would have to be made for the best all around and most frequent scenario. Having had several encounters. I would have to consider the pistol as a last ditch defense and more than likely I would need several follow up shots.
I still believe the revolver is more less likely to misfire and require nothing but another trigger pull.
I also believe that if you need more than 4 or 5 shots you are in trouble, but there is comfort in knowing you have 9 + shots.
I would not recommend anything smaller that a 10 mm but that's just my opinion. I also would not recommend anything larger than you can handle. (Everyone has there limits and should know them).
So my opinion is to carry whatever you feel best about that would work in all scenario's and live with your choice.
Just something to think about.
J E CUSTOM
Having shot pistols with over 60 ft/lbs of recoil down to pistols with less than 1 ft/lb, there is a point that fast follow up shots are not possible and a charging bear can cover ground very fast. You would hope that you made the right choice and had the right weapon for the time. (Not sure there would be such a choice because every encounter could be different.
So If I encountered a bear that would give me time and distance for 2 or 3 well placed shots, I would always carry my 460 S&W . If I were not given this luxury, I would want some very fast and manageable. (Up to and including a machine pistol)
. So the decision would have to be made for the best all around and most frequent scenario. Having had several encounters. I would have to consider the pistol as a last ditch defense and more than likely I would need several follow up shots.I still believe the revolver is more less likely to misfire and require nothing but another trigger pull.
I also believe that if you need more than 4 or 5 shots you are in trouble, but there is comfort in knowing you have 9 + shots.
I would not recommend anything smaller that a 10 mm but that's just my opinion. I also would not recommend anything larger than you can handle. (Everyone has there limits and should know them).
So my opinion is to carry whatever you feel best about that would work in all scenario's and live with your choice.
Just something to think about.
J E CUSTOM
Last edited:
calling4life
Well-Known Member
460 Rowland bullet diameter is .451, .451 squared = .203401
255 Grain sectional density =.179
230 Grain sectional density = .162
200 Grain sectional density = .1405
use that for 454 casull big bullets
400gr sectional density = .281
350gr sectional density = .246
10mm bullet diameter is .400 and .400 squared = .16
220 Grain sectional density = .196
200 Grain sectional density = .179
44 mag is .429 squared = .184041
340gr sectional density = .264
320gr sectional density =.248
300gr sectional density = .233
500 S&W is .500, that squared is .25
700gr = .4
600gr = .343
500gr =.286
440gr = .251
400gr = .229
Sectional density of .180 is noted as acceptable for varmints, .230 is game like deer, black bear, .280 is game like elk and bigger bear, and .330 for dangerous game like cape buffalo.
Sectional density being a decent predictor of penetration capabilities. Now obviously bullet construction is of great importance as well, 115gr hollow point in 9mm may penetrate 10", the 115gr extreme penetrator may penetrate several times that. Same weight, same sectional density as per the generally accepted calculation.
Vastly different results.
But you see the pattern, notable big bore stopper style calibers vs human stopping calibers. On humans you want little penetration, on moose you want much.
Further, penetrating bullets are non-expanding, so initial bullet diameter really matters, shouldn't be overlooked.
Next, thinking you're mag dumping 15 rounds into the pin head, which is where you'll need to be with a substandard, weak for animal round, is ludicrous. I get it can be a safety blanket for you, but unless you're fine with that blanket being used to cover your corpse, be a little more worried but with enough gun and use something better. Plan on one shot being all you get, and make it count, spray and pray is not good strategy.
Obviously you have to be able to shoot the gun, and accurately, if you can't do that with a 500 S&W, try the 460, no, go 454, no, 44 mag, yes, now find a heavy hardcast or other non-expanding solid. Small framed lady and the 10mm may really be the best choice, but stress the importance of that first shot hitting no matter what, wait until it's 5 feet away, whatever, several misses aren't going to beat the one hit. And any hit that doesn't stop that animal is a miss, whether that bear or whatever dies after it kills you is irrelevant to the discussion on a weapon to save your life.
Quick bear is 30-35 yards in 2 seconds, how many of you have a 2 second draw to first shot? Now what if you aren't in an air conditioned range using a timer you know is going to go off, but rather taking a leak in dense brush with little warning.
3 second draw.... he better be 45-52.5 yards out when you get after it.
255 Grain sectional density =.179
230 Grain sectional density = .162
200 Grain sectional density = .1405
use that for 454 casull big bullets
400gr sectional density = .281
350gr sectional density = .246
10mm bullet diameter is .400 and .400 squared = .16
220 Grain sectional density = .196
200 Grain sectional density = .179
44 mag is .429 squared = .184041
340gr sectional density = .264
320gr sectional density =.248
300gr sectional density = .233
500 S&W is .500, that squared is .25
700gr = .4
600gr = .343
500gr =.286
440gr = .251
400gr = .229
Sectional density of .180 is noted as acceptable for varmints, .230 is game like deer, black bear, .280 is game like elk and bigger bear, and .330 for dangerous game like cape buffalo.
Interestingly, 12 gauge slugs; are .729, square it = .531441
1 3/8 ounce Brenneke bear slug has a sectional density of .162
Which is not good, which is why you'll see those that are living and breathing bear defense note that shotguns are not good bear defense guns. They are better than nothing and everyone has one, so they get recommended, but they are not a wise choice vs many other guns.
1 3/8 ounce Brenneke bear slug has a sectional density of .162
Which is not good, which is why you'll see those that are living and breathing bear defense note that shotguns are not good bear defense guns. They are better than nothing and everyone has one, so they get recommended, but they are not a wise choice vs many other guns.
Sectional density being a decent predictor of penetration capabilities. Now obviously bullet construction is of great importance as well, 115gr hollow point in 9mm may penetrate 10", the 115gr extreme penetrator may penetrate several times that. Same weight, same sectional density as per the generally accepted calculation.
Vastly different results.
But you see the pattern, notable big bore stopper style calibers vs human stopping calibers. On humans you want little penetration, on moose you want much.
Further, penetrating bullets are non-expanding, so initial bullet diameter really matters, shouldn't be overlooked.
Next, thinking you're mag dumping 15 rounds into the pin head, which is where you'll need to be with a substandard, weak for animal round, is ludicrous. I get it can be a safety blanket for you, but unless you're fine with that blanket being used to cover your corpse, be a little more worried but with enough gun and use something better. Plan on one shot being all you get, and make it count, spray and pray is not good strategy.
Obviously you have to be able to shoot the gun, and accurately, if you can't do that with a 500 S&W, try the 460, no, go 454, no, 44 mag, yes, now find a heavy hardcast or other non-expanding solid. Small framed lady and the 10mm may really be the best choice, but stress the importance of that first shot hitting no matter what, wait until it's 5 feet away, whatever, several misses aren't going to beat the one hit. And any hit that doesn't stop that animal is a miss, whether that bear or whatever dies after it kills you is irrelevant to the discussion on a weapon to save your life.
Quick bear is 30-35 yards in 2 seconds, how many of you have a 2 second draw to first shot? Now what if you aren't in an air conditioned range using a timer you know is going to go off, but rather taking a leak in dense brush with little warning.
3 second draw.... he better be 45-52.5 yards out when you get after it.
Buck Fever
Well-Known Member
Bullet construction seems to have a large influence on penetration and expansion if you look at ballistic gelatin, pine board and other ballistic tests.
If you get a good heavy jacket soft point or hollow point 10mm bullet and load it around the original 10mm velocity instead of the weak box ammo out there, I think you could probably get 16-20" of penetration with expansion.
That's on the low end of acceptable but if you can get 6-7 shots on target, I believe you could kill a bear. Having 15 shots to get 6-7 hits seems pretty reasonable. In a charging bear situation, I doubt I could get off two accurate shots with my .475 Linebaugh. In that situation it seems like one miss makes you bear food. Which odds are better? I'm on the fence.
As for 10mm vs 460 Rowland with those numbers, 10mm looks like it has equal or better sectional density and probably better velocity which to me says better penetration. I have a feeling that a good jhp 10mm will expand better than a 255 grain hard cast in a 460 Rowland.
There are lots of variables and every bear defense is different so you're not going to know if your choice worked until you get attacked.
I know if I'm in that situation, I'll have my Glock 21 with a 6" 10mm conversion barrel and I'll cook up some bear ammo but I'll also have my .475 Linebaugh and make a game time decision.
If you get a good heavy jacket soft point or hollow point 10mm bullet and load it around the original 10mm velocity instead of the weak box ammo out there, I think you could probably get 16-20" of penetration with expansion.
That's on the low end of acceptable but if you can get 6-7 shots on target, I believe you could kill a bear. Having 15 shots to get 6-7 hits seems pretty reasonable. In a charging bear situation, I doubt I could get off two accurate shots with my .475 Linebaugh. In that situation it seems like one miss makes you bear food. Which odds are better? I'm on the fence.
As for 10mm vs 460 Rowland with those numbers, 10mm looks like it has equal or better sectional density and probably better velocity which to me says better penetration. I have a feeling that a good jhp 10mm will expand better than a 255 grain hard cast in a 460 Rowland.
There are lots of variables and every bear defense is different so you're not going to know if your choice worked until you get attacked.
I know if I'm in that situation, I'll have my Glock 21 with a 6" 10mm conversion barrel and I'll cook up some bear ammo but I'll also have my .475 Linebaugh and make a game time decision.
TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
If the reliability is there, perhaps a solid followed by an expander would be best?
calling4life
Well-Known Member
So, the assumption made of spray and pray not being a reliable strategy can be questioned.
Probably valid enough to do so, because here's the question.
In a moment of extreme danger under extreme duress, does a human have the capability to bear down on his sights and accurately place one shot (low number of shots with the aim essentially being to stop with one shot)
Or
Because of the blurred vision/tunnel vision, shaking from adrenaline, and so on, will firing volume be the way to the promise land?
That is to say, if I put you under extreme danger and duress, put a baseball at 20 yards, are you more likely to hit that target by taking your time and sending one shot, or by dumping your mag? (regardless the fact that you're only getting 2 seconds here anyway)
Now, the answer here may actually be multiple shots, because in that condition we may not realistically be able to focus on our sights to precisely place the one shot, but there's an asterisk here.
So, if we say multiple shots, now we have a problem of, can we get off multiple shots while maintaining a degree of accuracy, pulling the trigger so fast you clip your own chin doesn't do you much good. This is a big question too, if a bear is going to cover 15 yards or so per second, can you hit the baseball at 15 yards? How many shots can you get off in one second?
Now, the asterisk on the one shot scenario.
The one shot can be whenever, you can wait until the bear is 5 feet away, can you hit that baseball now... this may be statistically the only "right" answer to this conundrum.
Now the bear is bigger than a baseball, but the "stop zone," may only be baseball size territory, again, hitting the bear doesn't necessarily matter, you have to stop it, we don't care if the bear dies eventually, you must live.
Again: all this while under extreme danger and duress
So, at what range can you reliably hit a baseball, how many shots would it take you at 15 yards? How many shots can you get off in the one second that bear travels 15 yards?
How many shots will it take you at 30 yards? How many shots can you get off in the 2 seconds it takes the bear to cover that distance?
Plan for the worst hope for the best may really turn up that the answer is one shot, you HAVE to hit the brain, you have one shot, doesn't matter if he starts 30 yards away, shoot him 3 feet off the end of your gun if you have to, but one shot in the brain is it.
That may statistically be it, scary or not.
And yes, even so, there will be bears killed with 22s, people that sling volume of shots and stop the bear, people that quick draw and stop the bear stone dead at 20 yards.
The question here is if we had 10,000 bear charges and we could only chose ONE method of defense, what method, statistically, keeps the most people alive. ( I know not all charges are the same, some never get the opportunity to shoot, some get off several shots, plan for the worst means we plan for no shot, but that gives us nowhere to go, so we have to plan for at least the opportunity to shoot)
Is it "spray and pray," or is it "one and done."
Now, if the answer is spray and pray, I've got to think that then the question of gun and caliber become easier. Gun, well, it's spray and pray, you want all the rounds you can get in the gun, not on your hip in an additional magazine. And reliable of course, but 20 rounds beats 10 here. Comfortable, great pointing in your hand, fast shooting, many rounds, bullet that will penetrate through skull. More caliber than is needed means more recoil than is needed which isn't what we want for this strategy. Many shots on target very quickly is the key
If it's one and done, you need to come to terms with one shot is all you're taking, doesn't matter if you can't fire a 500 S&W 10 times in a row, you're relying on one shot, can you hit that baseball with that 500 S&W once, at whatever distance, 5 feet, dead bear is dead bear, you walk away is the point.
But I suppose at that point, one and done could be done with smaller too, heck, if you're hitting the brain you're hitting the brain, you just need to know you'll get the straightline penetration needed to go through the skull.
500 may allow a little more wiggle room in terms of the size of that bullseye though. As in, you didn't directly strike the brain like you would have needed to do with the 10mm, but because of the forces at play, blowing his head apart by hitting any meaningful mass of it means killing the bear, thus you now have a ... grapefruit sized bullseye
Add into all that, this, penetrating bullets are non-expanding bullets. So, does something like the 500 S&W, because of the drastic increase in energy, temporary and permanent wound channel, bone busting power, create the option to go center chest and stop the bear too?
If the bear is 30 yards out, can someone with a 500 or like, center up the chest and maybe have a secondary bullseye that's... IDK, a volleyball or what not size? Do the bigger bores create another opportunity not present with the smaller calibers.
So, quick first shot center chest, now focus on this next shot being the last, wait for a guaranteed hit of that baseball in between his eyes and quickly jerk the trigger.
Probably valid enough to do so, because here's the question.
In a moment of extreme danger under extreme duress, does a human have the capability to bear down on his sights and accurately place one shot (low number of shots with the aim essentially being to stop with one shot)
Or
Because of the blurred vision/tunnel vision, shaking from adrenaline, and so on, will firing volume be the way to the promise land?
That is to say, if I put you under extreme danger and duress, put a baseball at 20 yards, are you more likely to hit that target by taking your time and sending one shot, or by dumping your mag? (regardless the fact that you're only getting 2 seconds here anyway)
Now, the answer here may actually be multiple shots, because in that condition we may not realistically be able to focus on our sights to precisely place the one shot, but there's an asterisk here.
So, if we say multiple shots, now we have a problem of, can we get off multiple shots while maintaining a degree of accuracy, pulling the trigger so fast you clip your own chin doesn't do you much good. This is a big question too, if a bear is going to cover 15 yards or so per second, can you hit the baseball at 15 yards? How many shots can you get off in one second?
Now, the asterisk on the one shot scenario.
The one shot can be whenever, you can wait until the bear is 5 feet away, can you hit that baseball now... this may be statistically the only "right" answer to this conundrum.
Now the bear is bigger than a baseball, but the "stop zone," may only be baseball size territory, again, hitting the bear doesn't necessarily matter, you have to stop it, we don't care if the bear dies eventually, you must live.
Again: all this while under extreme danger and duress
So, at what range can you reliably hit a baseball, how many shots would it take you at 15 yards? How many shots can you get off in the one second that bear travels 15 yards?
How many shots will it take you at 30 yards? How many shots can you get off in the 2 seconds it takes the bear to cover that distance?
Plan for the worst hope for the best may really turn up that the answer is one shot, you HAVE to hit the brain, you have one shot, doesn't matter if he starts 30 yards away, shoot him 3 feet off the end of your gun if you have to, but one shot in the brain is it.
That may statistically be it, scary or not.
And yes, even so, there will be bears killed with 22s, people that sling volume of shots and stop the bear, people that quick draw and stop the bear stone dead at 20 yards.
The question here is if we had 10,000 bear charges and we could only chose ONE method of defense, what method, statistically, keeps the most people alive. ( I know not all charges are the same, some never get the opportunity to shoot, some get off several shots, plan for the worst means we plan for no shot, but that gives us nowhere to go, so we have to plan for at least the opportunity to shoot)
Is it "spray and pray," or is it "one and done."
Now, if the answer is spray and pray, I've got to think that then the question of gun and caliber become easier. Gun, well, it's spray and pray, you want all the rounds you can get in the gun, not on your hip in an additional magazine. And reliable of course, but 20 rounds beats 10 here. Comfortable, great pointing in your hand, fast shooting, many rounds, bullet that will penetrate through skull. More caliber than is needed means more recoil than is needed which isn't what we want for this strategy. Many shots on target very quickly is the key
If it's one and done, you need to come to terms with one shot is all you're taking, doesn't matter if you can't fire a 500 S&W 10 times in a row, you're relying on one shot, can you hit that baseball with that 500 S&W once, at whatever distance, 5 feet, dead bear is dead bear, you walk away is the point.
But I suppose at that point, one and done could be done with smaller too, heck, if you're hitting the brain you're hitting the brain, you just need to know you'll get the straightline penetration needed to go through the skull.
500 may allow a little more wiggle room in terms of the size of that bullseye though. As in, you didn't directly strike the brain like you would have needed to do with the 10mm, but because of the forces at play, blowing his head apart by hitting any meaningful mass of it means killing the bear, thus you now have a ... grapefruit sized bullseye
Add into all that, this, penetrating bullets are non-expanding bullets. So, does something like the 500 S&W, because of the drastic increase in energy, temporary and permanent wound channel, bone busting power, create the option to go center chest and stop the bear too?
If the bear is 30 yards out, can someone with a 500 or like, center up the chest and maybe have a secondary bullseye that's... IDK, a volleyball or what not size? Do the bigger bores create another opportunity not present with the smaller calibers.
So, quick first shot center chest, now focus on this next shot being the last, wait for a guaranteed hit of that baseball in between his eyes and quickly jerk the trigger.
Buck Fever
Well-Known Member
I don't think "spray and pray" is a fair term to use.
Either way I would try to take the best aimed shot possible, 10mm is just easier to shoot fast than 500 S&W and holds more ammo.
One perfect shot will work for either. Imperfect shots get fuzzy, especially when it is multiple imperfect shots against one or two.
Either way I would try to take the best aimed shot possible, 10mm is just easier to shoot fast than 500 S&W and holds more ammo.
One perfect shot will work for either. Imperfect shots get fuzzy, especially when it is multiple imperfect shots against one or two.
