45acp Or 10mm

[4th_point]

In my mind, all the service calibers are pretty weak for game. 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 357 Mag, 10mm, etc. If you need horsepower that's relatively controllable the 41 Mag (real 41 loads, not watered-down to 10mm levels), 44 Mag, and 45 Colt (heavy loads) are all above and beyond the service calibers.

Problem with the 357, 40 S&W, and 10mm is that by the time you load a heavy bullet in them they really don't have much if any velocity advantage over a 45 ACP with comparable sized handguns.

For example, DoubleTap Ammo 230gr loads for 10mm (from G20) are listed at 110 fps greater than the 45 ACP 230gr loads (from 5" 1911). 10mm has greater sectional density, 45 has bigger bullet. Turns into a great peeing match, but over what? A few fps? I agree that 110 fps is nothing to sneeze at, but its not a gigantic leap in terms of power by any stretch.

Compare the 10mm to 45 Super and the difference decreases. Buffalo Bore's 230gr Super has the same velocity as the 10mm 230gr from DoubleTap. Seems like a wash to me, other than bullet diameter. Yeah but the 10mm will pentrate better with the higher sectional density! For some reason the 10mm crowd doesn't always agree with this concept when the 357 fans make this claim of their pet vs the 10mm. I think we all tend to cherry pick our facts and figures. Its somewhat natural.

Same deal with 40 S&W vs 45 ACP. The 45 will shoot a 180gr bullet just as fast as a 40 S&W, but the 40 won't handle much over 200gr. I don't see what the 40 can do that the 45 can't, except hold a few more rounds. They'll both shoot 180gr and 200gr bullets about the same velocity.

How about the mighty 357 Mag? Again, with heavy-for-caliber 200gr bullets, in a 4" revolver, its only about 100 fps faster than the 45 ACP with the same weight bullet. But, the 357 does have great sectional density and probably the greatest penetration of all the service calibers if using hardcast bullets. If fired from a longer barrelled revolver, then I think the 357 can step past the other service calibers, but why bother? If I carry a large frame revolver, I'd just as soon carry a big bore.

Some like bigger diameter, heavy-for-caliber, at relatively slow velocity vs. smaller, lighter, and faster bullets. I like the slow and heavy, or fast and heavy! I carry a Glock 30 in 45 ACP, but when I want something more I carry my 45 Colt with 310gr hardcast LFN at 1250 fps. Its very accurate and a pleasure to shoot.

If a guy didn't want a heavy loaded Colt, 41, or 44 Mag, there are 255gr hardcast loads for the 45 ACP from Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap. No 255gr loaded ammo that I have seen for sale in 10mm, 40 S&W, or 357 Mag. Personally, I would rather have the .45 cal 255gr at 900 to 1100 fps over any 357, 40, or 10mm loads. The 255gr ACP load is basically the equivalent to the old black powder 45 Colt.

If I had to choose between 357 vs 40 vs 10mm vs 45 ACP only, I would take the one that I could shoot most accurately and the one I could afford to shoot enough to be proficient with if I didn't reload. My G30 is extremely accurate and has really soft recoil. By no means do I think it is a death ray, but at the same time I don't think it really gives up much if anything to the other service calibers.

If you like small, light, and fast, that's great too! There's no real winner, otherwise we wouldn't have all these great choices.

 

[Hired Gun]

Nice post but as you stated cherry picking the facts has nicely leveled the field to where they do look to be all about the same. Problem is when put into practice sectional density and penetration are huge factors that must be considererd. With equal weight bullets the 45 pentrates the least. Even out the sectional densities and the 45 is the slowest. When water bearing targets are involved then supersonic verses subsonic makes a big difference and this is where just 100 fps makes a huge difference in wounding ability.

Now lets go shoot some objects like a water jug behind a 4" thick alder tree. The 180 grain 10mm will make an impressive hole in the tree and destroy the jug where the 45 185 to 230 grain bullets will only go an 1" or 2" into the tree.

The common 230 grain 45 ACP load has just never done anything very well but put big holes in paper or blow bowling pins over. It shines at those tasks. Destroying everything else is much more fun with the 10mm.

 

[teddy12b]

I've looked into this a little bit for myself lately, and I had a hard time finding an apples to apples comparison of ammo. For what I was looking at I was impressed that I could buy a glock that holds 15rds of ammo that's comparable to a 41 mag for under $500. I'm not a glock guy by any means, but that's enough to make me consider it.

 

[preventec47]

In order to tip the scales toward the 45 convincingly, you have to be
willing to modernize the concept and shoot it at similar pressures
as the modern 10mm instead of the 100 year old design that we
are hanging on to.

With todays technology and metalurgy, we can shoot the 45 at hi pressures.
Why are we hanging on to the 100 year old performance guidelines ?

 

[teddy12b]

In order to tip the scales toward the 45 convincingly, you have to be
willing to modernize the concept and shoot it at similar pressures
as the modern 10mm instead of the 100 year old design that we
are hanging on to.

With todays technology and metalurgy, we can shoot the 45 at hi pressures.
Why are we hanging on to the 100 year old performance guidelines ?

The 10mm is new to me, but it seems the higher pressure levels of the 10mm are comparable to the 45acp +p+ type ammo? Do I understand that right? I think with all the ammo out there for the 45acp surely someone has bumped up the power behind it for modern pistols to the point where it would be comparable to a 10mm.

 

[preventec47]

Go back a couple of messages and read the link info.
There will be no more questions as all is explained

 

[4th_point]

Nice post but as you stated cherry picking the facts has nicely leveled the field to where they do look to be all about the same. Problem is when put into practice sectional density and penetration are huge factors that must be considererd. With equal weight bullets the 45 pentrates the least. Even out the sectional densities and the 45 is the slowest. When water bearing targets are involved then supersonic verses subsonic makes a big difference and this is where just 100 fps makes a huge difference in wounding ability.

Now lets go shoot some objects like a water jug behind a 4" thick alder tree. The 180 grain 10mm will make an impressive hole in the tree and destroy the jug where the 45 185 to 230 grain bullets will only go an 1" or 2" into the tree.

The common 230 grain 45 ACP load has just never done anything very well but put big holes in paper or blow bowling pins over. It shines at those tasks. Destroying everything else is much more fun with the 10mm.

No!!! Not another 10mm peeing match!!! I love these 10mm threads.

I provided heavy-for-caliber loads for each cartridge for comparison since that is simply what I prefer. Light-n-fast isn't my thing, but if that's what floats your boat then that is cool too! If my post seems like cherry picking, I apologize. Maybe I should have been more clear that I was comparing heavy loads.

A guy could come up with all sorts of tests to show how one cartridge/bullet combo is better than another. Phonebooks, wood, water jugs, etc. They only prove how one is better at killing common household items and trees! Especially when we are discussing the service cartridges that have more in common amongst themselves than they do with the big-bore magnums and heavy Colt loads. Really, we need to shoot actual animals to get a better idea of true performance.

Seems that you like the 180gr .40 cal (10mm), and cherry picked your own data comparing it to the 230gr ACP. Hey, that's cool. If I were hunting trees and water jugs lined up in a row, I'd choose a different bullet for my 45 ACP!

You like light, I like heavy. If we can agree on that, how about my 255gr hardcast at 1100 fps vs your 180gr 10mm at what, 1350 fps (DoubleTap load)? Your argument is that sectional density is king or queen. The 255gr bullet trumps your 180gr for that. The greater frontal diameter of the 255gr is also an advantage in my mind against flesh, but you've got a velocity advantage. I really like that 75gr weight advantage that the 255gr has though and would always take the heavier bullet if I need to smash bone. Linebaugh claims that a 255gr hardcast at 900 fps will shoot end-to-end on a mule deer. I've never done it, so I can't confirm but an extra 200 fps at 1100fps should only make the load better.

Hey, since we are both in Oregon, maybe we can run our own little test with the 255gr vs the 180gr. Or we could put these silly service cartridges away and use real big bores like the 41, 44, and Colt

 

[joe4570]

The 10mm is new to me, but it seems the higher pressure levels of the 10mm are comparable to the 45acp +p+ type ammo? Do I understand that right? I think with all the ammo out there for the 45acp surely someone has bumped up the power behind it for modern pistols to the point where it would be comparable to a 10mm.

45 ACP 21,000 PSI
45 ACP +p 23,000 PSI
45 Super 28,000 PSI
460 Rowland 38,000 PSI
10mm 32,000 + a bit

The steroid version of the 45 ACP is the Rowland which is being set up as kits in ever smaller and lighter packages . The only problem I have with the gun is that they always seem to end up in essentially the same size gun as a .45 ACP. The 10mm shoots flatter and seems to have more of a selection of deep penetrating bullets, which only works if your planning to be outside of 90% of most shooting incidents and you are shooting something heavy bodied.

I'd rather have a 45 type for home defense. too big for practical concealed carry and a 10mm with 200 grain loads if I needed to discourage a black bear or test my handgun skills on hogs. The Dan Wesson is a very nice 10mm for anyone who likes 1911 types.

 

[azsugarbear]

My carry gun is a Colt Delta Elite 10mm from the 1990's. The 10mm is a great round, especially in the heavier bullets. So I am a huge 10mm fan.

However, I believe this thread was originally about a carry gun. So I assume that we are talking self defense and not sport hunting. If this is the case, then I have no problem whatsoever with the 45 ACP. No, it is not the hot rod that some of the other calibers are, but against the human body - it gets the job done.

45 ACP ammo is readily available in a wide assortment of bullets, while 10mm ammo is tougher to find and more expensive. If this were my first carry gun, I would probably choose the 45 ACP or the 40 S&W over the 10mm. Recoil with the 10mm can be substantial. I believe that is how the 40 S&W came into being. A few gov't. agencies (FBI, SS) originally went with the 10mm as their new service piece back in the 90's, but many of the agents couldn't handle the recoil. So Smith & Wesson cut down the 10mm and put less powder in it and viola: the 40 S&W was born.

Now, if we are talking a hunting/woods back-up piece for critters, then start at the 10mm and work your way up from there.

 

[joe4570]

I think the 45 Super might just be your thing. I have and like my 10mm pistols
but the extra oomph of the 45 super makes it acceptable. The main reason
for accepatability is the ease of transition. all you have to do is change
recoil spring. It is not as powerful as the Rowland but you dont have
to get a barrel extension with compensators to use it.. That requirement
for Rowland removes all possibility for carry use.

The only thing that requires a little caution is that it should be a good quality 1911 type, not one of the imported models with spot hardening and low grade cast parts or early dimension ejector and timed to ACP pressure.

 

[ForneyRider]

STI did a 10mm 6in with their tactical(railed) frame in an 1911 magazine. beautiful gun. The magazine also covered the Kimber 10mm.

When I researched the Rowland and Super loads, I found to make my Springfield Loaded Stainless a Super, I just needed some springs from Wolf. To make the Rowland, I can get a kit from Brownell's. The Loaded has titanium firing pin and flared ejection port.

I like the 15rounds the G20 offers. But the XD(not a candidate for Super or Rowland) offers 13+1 and Para (not a candidate for Rowland, they stopped making kits last time I looked) offers 14+1.

 

[preventec47]

If you follow the link from several messages back you will read the
review of the Alaska Outfit called Wild West guns who is currently
selling the Rowland Kits for the Springfield XD and the M&P 45 pistols.

What is notable about their kits as opposed to all Rowland kits of
the past that I am aware of is that they are offering a plain barrel
in 5 or 6 inches without the compensators.

Basically they are taking 45ACP and loading them up to 9mm or
40S&W chamber pressures. Really Awesome in my mind. I assume
the XD and M&P pistols may be inherently stronger than the
1911 platform. Most likely they dont use the barrel link like
the 1911 does.