45/70 on steroids

[Fiftydriver]

Very impressive and interesting, I have been kicking around a similiar idea but on 475 cal, just got to get around to doing it some day.

On a slightly different topic and replying to something that was said about the hard cast bullets. When I was really into handgun hunting with big bore handguns, I did alot of testing with several of them for penetration compared to some of the better rifle penetrators out there.

In the handguns I tested the following:

45 Colt(ruger) loaded with 360 gr WFNGC @ 1200 fps

480 Ruger loaded with 425 gr WFNGC @ 1150 fps

50 AE loaded with 440 gr WFNGC @ 1200 fps(revolver) and 1400 fps (Encore)

They were tested for penetration against a 375 H&H with 300 gr Partition loaded to 2600 fps and a 458 Win Mag with 500 gr Hornady SP loaded to 2100 fps. Also the 458 Lott with 500 gr SP loaded to 2300 fps.

In every case, fired into water soaked news print at 50 yards, the wide flat nose revolver bullets produced at least as big or larger of a wound channel then any of the rifle rounds.

The 480 Ruger penetrated the second farthest, only a few inches behind the 458 Lott and deeper then both the 375 and 458 Win Mag.

The Colt out penetrated the 375 every time and the 50 AE pretty much matched the 458 Win Mag.

Again, this is comparing soft point bullets to heat treated cast bullets which is not a totally fair comparision. If you compared solids in the rifle chamberings to the handguns, they would likely far out penetrate them BUT, they would not produce the good wound channels that the handgun bullets are famous for.

Combine your creation with the right bullets and you may have a SERIOUS hammer for close range work when things go from FUN to Serious!!!

Very interesting.

I think my hold up on my project has been the idea of recoil. I do not overly like it. My 458 Lott in a 10 lb rifle is as much fun as I like to put myself through. Similiar performance in a light carbine sounds like more then this boy would like to submit myself to. The old PK muzzle brake has softened me up!!! LOL

Very interesting work, keep us posted!!

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Why would using a bullet of the same build, just faster, produce smaller wound channels in a rifle?

 

[ROBSTER]

Fiftydriver,
480 Ruger loaded with 425 gr WFNGC @ 1150 fps
what is your receipe for this and where can I get these slugs? Sounds like they would be good for hogs.

robstergun)

 

[Chas1]

Tyler, using a bullet of the same build, just faster, produce smaller wound channels in a rifle? Don't think that's what's been said...If so, where?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Tyler,

Not what I said at all. THey are not the same type of bullets. The rifle bullets were expanding bullets. Designed for heavy game but still expanding bullets. THe handgun bullets are made from a lead alloy and heat treated as hard as possible but not so hard that they will fracture on impact of heavy bone.

The Soft points in impact will produce a mushroom shape, the hard case bullets have a very wide flat nose with sharp angle. Some of them look pretty darn near square on the bullet nose. This nose deforms very little and the large flat nose acts as a plow to push tissue aside as the bullet penetrated. One would think this would limit penetration but the fact that the bullet looses no energy in expansion results in deep penetration. On top of that, STRAIGHT penetration, very straight.

If you look at the solid bullets for rifles, most will still be similiar to a round nose bullet profile or slightly modified profile with a small flat on the nose but still rounded edges. These bullets WILL out penetrate the handgun bullets but will not leavy much of a wound channel because they slip through tissue much easier.

Big bore hard cast bullets penetrate and take down game MUCH better then anyone that has never witnessed them at work would ever believe. I have taken many whitetails and mule deer with my big bore handguns. I have taken three whitetails with my 50 AE and two with my 480 Ruger with loads listed above. These specific examples were shot broad side at 30 to 60 yards. Impact was just behind the shoulder so no major bone was contacted at all in impact or exit. On all of these examples, the deer fell in their tracks, literally, like they had been hit in the brain, why is this. Hydrostatic shock waves which are all the rage, certainly not, remember we are only talking about impact velocities around 1000 to 1100 fps. No support bones impacted, no central nervous system hits, why did they fall to the shots with only soft tissue shots.

Simply put, the bullet and their design. Again, if you have not witnessed this its hard to believe but I assure you it is fact.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Robster,

I believe I was using 21 or 22 grains of H-Lilgun under the cast performance 425 WFNGC bullets. One note that you will have to do. Take each bullet and clean out the closest lube groove to the crimping groove. Then use this cleaned out groove for the new crimping groove. There is PLENTY of room in the big Super Red Hawk cylinder for the added length and it will give you many grains more capacity. In fact, in a five shot 480 Ruger, seated long this way, you can match the 475 Linebaugh because case capacities are nearly identical.

In the 6 shot Ruger I would not go over 1200 fps but always watch for extraction issues. That is why I always recommend doing load development shooting a full cylinder of rounds and in a dirty cylinder. This will show pressure signs much sooner then only one or two cases in the cylinder and clean chambers.

Some SRHs have gotten up over 1200 fps, some will get extraction issues at around 1150 fps. In the end, anything over 1100 fps and you will never find one of these bullets in a hog unless your shooting them length wise and even then you will generally get full penetration on most hogs.

You can get these bullets from www.midwayusa.com

They were keeping them in stock so I would check with them first or you can order direct from Cast Performance. Amazing bullets.

 

[ROBSTER]

Fiftydriver,
thank you for the info my SRH is the six shooter with a 9 1/2 barrel looking forward to trying these.
Robster

 

[Aldon]

One of the coatings that the Alaskan come available with as an upgrade is Nitride.

Is that the same type of coating that Remington uses on the AWR?

 

[loaders_loft]

Aldon, if you like the 30-30, you'll love a 444 marlin. I've got the model 444P, with 18 1/2" ported barrel. I shoot the hornady factory 265 interlock ammo.

Long live the thunder gun!

 

[edge]

Here is a link to an interesting website:

Terminal Ballistics

I have never used hard cast bullets on game so I can't verify this formula from that website:

He observed that the wound (or channel in test media) caused by hardcast flat-nosed lead bullets was proportional to velocity and to the diameter of the flat portion of the nose. I am impressed by the tests which he conducted, because he found by blacking the noses and shoulders of the bullet types he tested that the notion long held that a Keith-style semi-wadcutter cut a hole on the basis of its shoulder diameter (as opposed to its nose) was incorrect; the blacking on the shoulders was intact, only the nose was clean (this phenomenon may differ at much lower velocities or different nose shapes). On the basis of his testing, he developed cast bullet designs which are nearly cylindrical and feature a very wide flat point. These bullets are regarded as the ultimate in performance for handgun hunters in pursuit of heavy game and they also provide excellent performance in rifles chambered for older cartridges which accommodate the use of cast bullets. The empirical formulas which I have made on the basis of his investigations and theories are:

Penetration (in wetpack):
PEN(FN) (inches) = Bullet Weight (lbs) x Impact Velocity (fps) / Meplat Diameter (inches) / 5


Cavitation (in soft tissue):
CAV(FN) (inches) = Impact Velocity (fps) x Meplat Diameter (inches) / 225 - 0.725


edge.