.444 vs 45-70 vs 30-30

[Lefty7mmstw]

Bolt gun owners sooner or later short shuck the bolt in a panic, and then become part of the food chain if they are alone. That's why you see so many doubles in dangerous game areas. You meet a bear at 100 feet with a bolt gun, and he's gonna be ontop of you almost instantly. You might get two shots off, while a guy that has a lever gun should get four or five.

The .405 Winchester is an excellent round, but really not much better than the .444 (well a little better). Both push a 300 grain bullet a little over 2000 fps. (2200 verses 2100fps). Of course you using a case that's almost a half in longer and near impossible to find these days. A .450 with a 350 grain bullet is similar in power, and the 400 grain bullet is a serious stopper on anything in this hemisphere. Then you take into fact that 90% of the end users will never plan on reloading any of the big bores as they only plan on shooting a box of ammo a year at the most. I like the .405, but out of the box Hornaday loads for the .450 are much easier.
gary

I don't have to worry about brass availability or bullet availability with the 405. I have 300 brass(180 of those are loaded hornady 300 fp's) and a lyman mould. I was working with lead last summer but this summer I've been on other projects (new 7stw, 2 different 270's, 35 whelen). It really shows promise with lead, and I should be able to hold 1.5- 2" groups at 100 yds with it blade sights. That's about where I am with lead pills in my 375 H@H when I use lead instead of my 300 tsx pills.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Chipper 44 has a valid point on the slugs doing well. The last time I tried slugs in my sx2 it shot 3" groups at 100 yards using the rib on a bullseye. It won't get you any style points though....

 

[Trickymissfit]

I'll second the 308. I know that wasn't part of the question but being someone else mentioned it. I had 3 444's and a couple 45/70's all have been sold. Once I sat down and started shooting/reloading the 308 they made little sense to keep. The 308 will run circles around the 444 and 45/70 at 200 yards plus. Hows the 45/70 at 800 yards? If you will be limited to hunting under 200 yards just take a 12 gauge with a sabot slug. Check the ballistics of a 12 gauge sabot slug vs 45/70.

I know this will not be the most popular reply but I just had to point out a different point of view. Maybe ruffle a few feathers.

original poster wants a lever gun. Plus at two hunded yards the difference is about 200ft. lb. of energy assuming the bullet dosn't exit the torso. One has a little better sectional density, while the other has greater mass and cross section. In otherwords at 100 feet, which one would would you choose to shoot ole griz in the chest with? Neither is perfect for sure, but each has an advantage over the other. At the muzzel the .450 makes the .308 an also run. A max loaded .444 with the 300 grain Speer bullet (2200 fps) will have about 3500 ft.lb. of energy at the muzzel. You just can't get there with a 308.
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

I don't have to worry about brass availability or bullet availability with the 405. I have 300 brass(180 of those are loaded hornady 300 fp's) and a lyman mould. I was working with lead last summer but this summer I've been on other projects (new 7stw, 2 different 270's, 35 whelen). It really shows promise with lead, and I should be able to hold 1.5- 2" groups at 100 yds with it blade sights. That's about where I am with lead pills in my 375 H@H when I use lead instead of my 300 tsx pills.

Now don't think I'm negative towards the .405 Winchester! I love it! To be exact I want a Hi-Wall in .405 Winchester really really bad! Kinda been thinking about a wildcat that's short enough to run thru a Marlin 336 action that uses the .405 Winchester bullet (2.06" case length with a .444 case)
gary

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Now don't think I'm negative towards the .405 Winchester! I love it! To be exact I want a Hi-Wall in .405 Winchester really really bad! Kinda been thinking about a wildcat that's short enough to run thru a Marlin 336 action that uses the .405 Winchester bullet (2.06" case length with a .444 case)
gary

Not at all Tricky.
Everyone has their favorite lever round though.
I've had my sights on the 405's since they were first hitting the market ten years ago or more. I finally found a deal on a Teddy Roosevelt HG rifle a couple of years back. I saw the first couple of loads get discontinued and decided to start stocking up and start reloading for it. Now that I've got my stuff there's only 1 hornady load and no win loads so I guess I was correct to stock up. The 45's don't really seem to have that problem right now, but at one time the 45-70 was about dead too. Anyone with any of these cal's should have some stuff on hand in case of supply/demand issues.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Not at all Tricky.
Everyone has their favorite lever round though.
I've had my sights on the 405's since they were first hitting the market ten years ago or more. I finally found a deal on a Teddy Roosevelt HG rifle a couple of years back. I saw the first couple of loads get discontinued and decided to start stocking up and start reloading for it. Now that I've got my stuff there's only 1 hornady load and no win loads so I guess I was correct to stock up. The 45's don't really seem to have that problem right now, but at one time the 45-70 was about dead too. Anyone with any of these cal's should have some stuff on hand in case of supply/demand issues.

I'd like to have one of the 1885 Hunters in .405! I have one in 38-55, and it's fun! The bad thing about the .405 is availibility. The case supply has dried up more than once in my lifetime. .450 brass is now priced over the top (last I saw was $40 a box), and I really need to buy another 200 cases before I have to take out a second mortgage (I think I have about 250 virgin cases in a couple bags.) I did think more than once about doing a #1 Ruger in .405/.284, and that may yet happen.
gary

 

[Trever]

I have a 30-30, 44-70, 450 marlin. All are marlin lever actions and all are very reliable so far. I prefer the .450 myself. But if i am going to be in an open area i use the 30-30. Recoil and environment would make my decision