.444 vs 45-70 vs 30-30

[Trickymissfit]

Seems to me that a 45/70 with a 300g loaded at 2000fps ought to kill any of your pigs and goats. I don't think He will be using the 500g Elephant loads that these things will shoot. Bullet drop out to 125-150 yards is not a big factor and if you use iron sights that's about all you will shoot anyway. A ballistic plex scope will allow shooting out to 300yards or so...maybe more

I have shot groups with my 1895 Marlin Cowboy that you can cover with a quarter at 100 yards. My GBL is a little different kritter but it still shoots pretty well. It is getting a 2-7 Burris ballistic plex.

I have never used a 30-30 or 444 but I can tell you that if you shoot a deer with a 300g 45/70 you won't have to look far for it and a blind man could follow the blood trail the few yards to where the dead animal with the large hole in it is.

I guess the point is that you can load a 300g bullet in a 45/70 all the way from subsonic to 2200fps+ or so and tailor it to your needs and amount of recoil you want. Ammo and components are way easier to get at least here in the USA.

I looked at the 45-70 when I bought the .450. The problem was that I only shot the rifle once or twice a year, and just wasn't worth my time to reload at the time. I could buy a box of factory Hornadays and still be shooting that box after two years. Later I got to fooling around with reloads in the .450, but that's another story (mainly price of ammo) Still have not tried any of the pointed bullets yet, but will. The .444 shoots pretty flat with standard bullets, and with pointed bullets is good for at least 275 yards accurately.
gary

 

[Buano]

recoil on the .444 using 265 grain bullets isn't all that bad. Kinda like shooting 180 grain bullets out of a 30-06 in an eight pound rifle. Now they are not exactly fun to shoot off a bench, but if your shooting off hand they are not all that bad. Just put the gun tight into your shoulder and sorta lean into it. Let the rifle do it's recoil while working the lever at the sametime. In this position, I'll click off all the rounds the rifle holds without a hitch. The .450 is another story. It'll beat you up silly off the bench, and even with a bunny bag between you and the butt stock (took me three days to finally get it zeroed in!) But I also shoot Speer 400 grain bullets in it. The factory loads are still rather stiff, and maybe a touch hotter than the same bullet in a 45-70. I honestly think the .338 Marlin might be the ticket here. Reduced recoil, and still hit pretty hard.

As for the .444 on bears. A black bear for sure, but I'm not real sure I'd want to hunt big bears with one. I carried one for several years on my fishing trips, but after hearing about a fishing guide getting mauled by a male grizzley while carrying one I moved up a notch. She was probably using 265 grain bullets, and the 330 grain bullets hit much harder. Still I know that if I hit him at 60 feet with a 400 grain bullet at 1900fps, he's done.
gary

I'm definitely NOT saying I would choose a .444 as a bear stopper. .375 H&H yes, even a .340 Weatherby is a better choice. My point was that the guide acknowledged that the .444 wasn't useful beyond "stopping range" while so many other rounds are.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I'm definitely NOT saying I would choose a .444 as a bear stopper. .375 H&H yes, even a .340 Weatherby is a better choice. My point was that the guide acknowledged that the .444 wasn't useful beyond "stopping range" while so many other rounds are.

I never ever want to shoot a grizzley bear, but when you meet that 600lb. male face to face on a back trail you often have no choice. I was (still am) very comfortable with the .444, but also know it limitations. I did the shotgun thing the first couple times out (3" lion slugs), but always found myself looking over my shoulder.. After doing some testing on a target set at 60 feet from me (five feet high) I found I could put four 265 grain bullets in an area the size of a half dollar standing up (I later got the groups better). I got similar results with the 300 grain Speers, and about 25% bigger with the 330 grain Corbons shooting as fast as I could work the action and still sighting it on the target area. Four hits in the sternum equales about 10,000lb. of energy! And the 300 grain Speer bullet has a much heavier build than regular 44 mag bullets. (300grain bullet at 2200fps). I load mine to 2100fps, so the energy will be a little less. I never trusted a bolt action rifle for a series of fast shooting at 50 to 60 feet in the panic mode.
gary

 

[Mike 338]

I never trusted a bolt action rifle for a series of fast shooting at 50 to 60 feet in the panic mode.
gary

There in lies one of the major advantages of the lever rifle. You can get shots off fast enough to make someone think your shooting a semi. That's why lots of those Alaska fellas tote a lever gun. It only makes sense however is it's stone cold reliable. I'll say it again... save your receipt if you buy a new one.

 

[Centxshooter]

Vote here for 45-70 it has taken many of hogs and none of them took a second step.

 

[rebelfootball73]

i would go with the 45-70. marin makes a good rifle and i would def put a red dot on it. its going to be much faster to get on target if one of those hogs gets to charging you then any thing elsgun)

 

[Trickymissfit]

There in lies one of the major advantages of the lever rifle. You can get shots off fast enough to make someone think your shooting a semi. That's why lots of those Alaska fellas tote a lever gun. It only makes sense however is it's stone cold reliable. I'll say it again... save your receipt if you buy a new one.

Boy you hit the nail right on the head!! Thats why I said to look for a Marlin built lever gun, but then I'm also hung up on Savage 99's! If I were in Alaska and wanted a good lever gun to at least slow down the neighbors, I'd also consider hunting up a Savage 99 in .358 Winchester.
gary

 

[NeptunesTrident]

I have a guide gun in 45-70. It's a very versatile round. Most factory rounds are loaded very mild (for use in older firearms) and have very little recoil. Some companies (Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Corbon, Garrett) also sell fully loaded max power rounds for use in strong firearms such as Marlin 1895 or Ruger #1 and that turns it into whole other class of power. My 45-70 is my favorite gun to shoot. Something fun about launching 400-500 grain bullets rapid fire out of a fast lever action. If you handload you can load it from mild to wild with a wide variety of bullets. My 350 Gr. load has a PBR of 225 yards for elk and is roughly 18in low at 300 yards. It's very accurate too. I much prefer the 45-70 over the 450 just because of the wide range of factory ammo available. Like I said, you can buy mild factory rounds and full power rounds.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I have a guide gun in 45-70. It's a very versatile round. Most factory rounds are loaded very mild (for use in older firearms) and have very little recoil. Some companies (Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Corbon, Garrett) also sell fully loaded max power rounds for use in strong firearms such as Marlin 1895 or Ruger #1 and that turns it into whole other class of power. My 45-70 is my favorite gun to shoot. Something fun about launching 400-500 grain bullets rapid fire out of a fast lever action. If you handload you can load it from mild to wild with a wide variety of bullets. My 350 Gr. load has a PBR of 225 yards for elk and is roughly 18in low at 300 yards. It's very accurate too. I much prefer the 45-70 over the 450 just because of the wide range of factory ammo available. Like I said, you can buy mild factory rounds and full power rounds.

nothing wrong with a 45-70, but full bore loads are seriously hard on the action (even a Marlin). Better off with the .450 if that's what your after. The action is built a little stronger with the .450, but not a huge amount. A .450 will easilly push a 400 grain Speer to 1900 fps using AA2230, and that's about all you can get with a 350 grain bullet out of the 45-70. The Speer 350 grainbullet is said to have a .23 B/C (I doubt it), while the Hornaday plastic tipped bullet has the same B/C. Who's accurate here? Myself I like the 400 grain mass at a little over 1900 fps. The 300 grain bullet from Speer out of the .444 is good for about 2280fps in my rifle, and that bullet would hold up well in something tough. But the OP basicly said that he was shooting 300lb. stuff, and the .444 would be just as good as most anything else without beating you silly.
gary

 

[NeptunesTrident]

Don't know where you got your info bud but you are incorrect. The ammo companies I mentioned load ammo FOR the Marlin 1895. I've yet to hear of anyone who's 1895 couldn't handle those rounds. If you load a round too hot for the 1895 then skip the 450 (which offers no performance value) and get a Ruger no. 1. They can be safely loaded to even higher pressure than an 1895 (45-70 or 450 Marlin). If the OP wants a 444 there is nothing wrong with that round either. Just giving the OP my personal experience with the 45-70 as I have never owned a 444 or 30-30 to compare it to. With a 300 lb animal all three are great.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Don't know where you got your info bud but you are incorrect. The ammo companies I mentioned load ammo FOR the Marlin 1895. I've yet to hear of anyone who's 1895 couldn't handle those rounds. If you load a round too hot for the 1895 then skip the 450 (which offers no performance value) and get a Ruger no. 1. They can be safely loaded to even higher pressure than an 1895 (45-70 or 450 Marlin). If the OP wants a 444 there is nothing wrong with that round either. Just giving the OP my personal experience with the 45-70 as I have never owned a 444 or 30-30 to compare it to. With a 300 lb animal all three are great.

I stand behind my post! The .450 action is said to be stronger, and it's also known that the Marlin 1895 action is seriously taxed with anything much over 28K psi loads There's even a disclaimer written in most all loading manuals about this. (sammi max is 28K for modern lever guns)
gary

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I'll take my '95 win high grade in 405 any day against any round mentioned. If stopping is on the agenda my rem lightweight sps in 375h@h ought to have fun. Another option for the 45-70 if you are bent on that is a siamese mauser. It'll take all you can give it and smile.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I'll take my '95 win high grade in 405 any day against any round mentioned. If stopping is on the agenda my rem lightweight sps in 375h@h ought to have fun. Another option for the 45-70 if you are bent on that is a siamese mauser. It'll take all you can give it and smile.

Bolt gun owners sooner or later short shuck the bolt in a panic, and then become part of the food chain if they are alone. That's why you see so many doubles in dangerous game areas. You meet a bear at 100 feet with a bolt gun, and he's gonna be ontop of you almost instantly. You might get two shots off, while a guy that has a lever gun should get four or five.

The .405 Winchester is an excellent round, but really not much better than the .444 (well a little better). Both push a 300 grain bullet a little over 2000 fps. (2200 verses 2100fps). Of course you using a case that's almost a half in longer and near impossible to find these days. A .450 with a 350 grain bullet is similar in power, and the 400 grain bullet is a serious stopper on anything in this hemisphere. Then you take into fact that 90% of the end users will never plan on reloading any of the big bores as they only plan on shooting a box of ammo a year at the most. I like the .405, but out of the box Hornaday loads for the .450 are much easier.
gary

 

[chipper44]

I'll second the 308. I know that wasn't part of the question but being someone else mentioned it. I had 3 444's and a couple 45/70's all have been sold. Once I sat down and started shooting/reloading the 308 they made little sense to keep. The 308 will run circles around the 444 and 45/70 at 200 yards plus. Hows the 45/70 at 800 yards? If you will be limited to hunting under 200 yards just take a 12 gauge with a sabot slug. Check the ballistics of a 12 gauge sabot slug vs 45/70.

I know this will not be the most popular reply but I just had to point out a different point of view. Maybe ruffle a few feathers.