408 The way it should be

[timmymic]

The 408 is just now starting to see the devlopment in bullets that the 375 and 416 got several years ago. The big problem is what case do you use to see the advantage of the improvement in bullets well we have that covered in the 400 warlord and the 408 colossus. The warlord was designed as a single feed cheytac cartridge while the colossus was designed for the Pierce 20x action. The 400 warlord has a useable capacity of aprox 170 grains behind the 450 grain badlands bullet in our devlopment we tuned in 4 fps sd's on 5 shots at 3175 fps still supersonic to 3500 yards at at 7000 feet all from a cheytac action. Now the 408 colossus is even bigger 185 grains of useable capacity behind a 450 grain badlands bullet should fall in around 3300+ View attachment 190383View attachment 190383View attachment 190384View attachment 190383View attachment 190384plus fps . With much heavier duty cases to be run at way higher pressures . Working on the builds now

How do you get the brass that clean or is that never fired?

 

[lyle2231]

Respectfully Sir, How does it compare with the .50 BMG ROUND?
How heavy is the rifle compared to the Barrett .50 cal?

 

[Betarider]

How about affordability? You can now buy a 416Barrett for $3500 and shoot just like a real long range gunner at a third of their costs As the leader in new ideas, if cost was the limiting factor, we wouldn't be anywhere near the levels we are now

 

[Kay0404]

Primerless = cross-case electronic ignition?

 

[Swamplord]

How do you get the brass that clean or is that never fired?

0000 steel wool polish after tumbling

 

[TwistedFox]

I thought the definition of ELR started at 1,500 yards or a mile and certainly at 2,000 yards.

I'm planning to try 2,000+ yards with my 338 RUM. I know that's not in the same league as one of your wildcats but to say it isn't ELR is kind of petty.

I only mentioned the costs of 6.5 Creedmoor to illustrate the range of costs going from a good and affordable long range round to an entry level ELR round (338 RUM).

I have an idea of what .50 BMG costs to shoot and it's more than 338 RUM even if you use surplus brass, bullets and even pull-down powder. If you step up to match grade stuff it gets pretty expensive but probably still cheap compared to an ELR wildcat with no parent case.

The point I was making is that these no parent wildcats are expensive and reusing brass more than 10 times is great but doesn't make them cheap.

I wasn't comparing anything to .38 Special reloads made from recycled wheel weights, dont make it seem like I was doing anything beside commenting on cost

the definition of elr
Starting at 1500 yards does not end there it's only a starting point ELR shooting and or matches start at 1500 yards and go out to 3500 yards so shooting ELR with a firearm and a cartridge or caliber that is not capable of going out to 3500 yards does not fall into the definition of ELR it's not the capability of shooting up to are just beyond 1500 yards

 

[25WSM]

Twisted come on that's a bunch of bull. If some one shoots 1500 yards only he is shooting elr. You don't have to shoot 3500 yards also. If you shoot anywhere in the slot of what you say is 1500 to 3500 yards then your shooting elr. I'm sure if you show up at a 1500 yard match they are not going to say that you can't shoot that pea shooter it won't reach 3500 yards even though we are only shooting 1500. The difference in a cartridges ability to hit at 1500 is drastically different than 3500. But it's all ELR.
Shep

 

[TwistedFox]

How about affordability? You can now buy a 416Barrett for $3500 and shoot just like a real long range gunner at a third of their costs As the leader in new ideas, if cost was the limiting factor, we wouldn't be anywhere near the levels we are now

I am not aware of any high end quality 416 Barrett builds for $3,500 he'll a good quality action alone to shoot the 416 Barrett it's 2000 plus dollars. There are some companies that may be making lower-end budget rifles that shoot 416 but not with the level accuracy and quality to be competitive Plus the 400 Warlord being a CheyTac action size cartridge greatly reduces cost build and yet outperforms the 416 Barrett in a CheyTac action. The Colossus Blitzkrieg enforcer Destroyer uses specialized action that is BMG sized (not bmg face )way outperforms the Barrett and BMG no it's not cheap it's not mass-produced and was never designed to be marketed or sold to the average Joe

 

[timmymic]

0000 steel wool polish after tumbling

In the tumbler again or vibrator?

 

[TwistedFox]

Twisted come on that's a bunch of bull. If some one shoots 1500 yards only he is shooting elr. You don't have to shoot 3500 yards also. If you shoot anywhere in the slot of what you say is 1500 to 3500 yards then your shooting elr. I'm sure if you show up at a 1500 yard match they are not going to say that you can't shoot that pea shooter it won't reach 3500 yards even though we are only shooting 1500. The difference in a cartridges ability to hit at 1500 is drastically different than 3500. But it's all ELR.
Shep

Is 1500 yards a ELR distance? Yes of course it is and if you shoot 1500 yards are you shooting the distance that qualifies you to go to a ELR match? When ELR was organized as an organization in-match parameters it was in a competition setting of engaging targets from 1500 yd Plus if you entered a match with a cartridge / caliber that was only capable of engaging targets to say 1700 yards you in no way would be competitive so should you be excluded from the match if you weren't shooting at least a 338 Lapua that's it exactly what ko2m did now some organized matches have two classes 338 and under and a second class that is over 338 no one that I know of except for the ko2m has excluded anything under 338 but to tie up a big bore
Competition with a rash of Shooters shooting non-competitive calibers and cartridges makes no sense at all. That's why a 338 and under class competition was designed no one wants to exclude the use of a 6.5 Creedmoor or a 300 Win Mag just don't want to get in the habit of condoning it. Attrition will eventually remove them from the competition and or Inspire them to step up their game. ELR is about extending distances and capabilities and advancements it's not about hindering. the biggest problem is every one wants to be recognized as shooting elr when in fact it's not what's elr for your abilities or your cartridge . It's a match that goes out to 3500 plus yards that just happens to have a starting point of 1500 yards

 

[Buck Fever]

In my opinion, I think you might have a bit of a point not calling 1,500 yards real ELR shooting if your rifle can't shoot a mile but I look at the .22lr ELR training at 400+ yards and I would call that ELR because its extending the range far beyond what regular shooters would consider a long shot with that chambering.

I think wildcats have improved the breed in several ways but it seems like the popularity of shooting beyond 1,000 yards is a recent phenomenon that began when optics with reliable tracking became more available, computer generated ballistic drop charts became easy to make, decent laser range finders that can measure more than 1,000 yards started showing up and a few (extreme) long range chamberings were developed that put 2,000+ yard potential in to standard size long actions.

Pushing the limits has introduced technology that has trickled down in to the smaller stuff but I'm not sure the new popularity should be attributed to that.

I'm certainly not going to be able to make a credible attempt at a competition like KOTM with small stuff and I'm glad there are people out there who invest so much in to ELR development and try the stuff I can only dream about.

 

[Bushhog57]

WOW.. you guys left me at the get-go.. my head is spinning...

 

[A10guy]

TwistedFox,

Who makes the powder scale in the photos from the first post? I have never seen that one before, though I do lead a fairly sheltered life.

Thank you, Scott

 

[Jeff Heeg osoh]

Words well put Fox, the reality is the limits and how hard they can be pushed with some type of repeatability. It always looks easy and achievable in the videos on the webs but to do it at any given time under pressure and a time restraint is what pushes the shooting industry to preform and exceed as to what most folks say can't be done. The trickle effect benefits everyone in time.

Also dollar signs always appear that folks tend to assume is the real deal. The cost of a high quality ELR rig being built by a smith that has done many in this category is not as far out of touch to some of the high end hunting rifles and sport shotguns. Brass is a component that if of good quality and the reloader knows what he's doing can last a dozen or more firings. Powder is powder and is like gassing up the car I look at bullet and primer cost and when purchased right in my case with a 416 wildcat is $3.65 a round.

Barrel wear figured in to the cost of a round is debatable as well this would be like trying to compare street rods that some folks smoke the heck out of their tires every time it comes out of the garage and some maybe just here and there. If a person has a over bored hot rod of a rifle it can all matter on how hard he has to push it at the many shooting event that are available today. Shooting at a gun range versus having to heat her up with out a choice makes a difference.

This isn't taking anything away from any of the light classes or smaller calibers and the fun that goes with it, I think the original focus here is the efforts on pushing the extended limits that benefit everyone at the end of the day.

Keep up the good work Fox and Swamp

I am osoh
JHeeg