400gr X 416 Remington Mag NOT Enough For GRIZZ?

[Brent]

I've shot plenty of hardcast bullets, a lot higher than 1200 fps too, never have seen any expansion in wet sand, any, and it's far harder on bullets than anything else ever is. So, I seriously have doubts about the claims of expansion with these 12ga slugs, but it isn't even necessary though, and likely counter productive for BB protection. That's why I use the 300gr hardcast's in my 44, and 310's in my 454, so they don't expand and get best penitration. They are already making over 40 cal holes in the critter (about like a high power expanding 30 cal) and need every bit of penitration they can get.

Still, the .750" - .900" holes the 416's and larger produce with expanding bullets at higher speed is a tremendous step up from a pistol or even a 30 cal rifle, no doubt.

John, aren't those energy figures for the 416 WBY just sick! Still haven't recovered a 400gr X bullet yet, but I haven't shot them through anything that had much of a chance at really stopping them either.

These 330gr HV BT GS Custom copper slugs I just got it sighted in with now are said to have a BC of over .550, so if they can be bumped up to 2900 - 3000 fps they should be outstanding at LR, or up close.

 

[dakor]

I read this over at AR the guide that shot the bear with a 416 said prior to him shooting the bear in the chest at point blank range the bear had been shot in the groin and the foot. He also stated that he short stroked his rifle and only got one shot in the bear when it charged him and that is the shot that the bear died from after he attacked the guide. That goes to show you shot placement is the most important thing hitting it in the foot and balls doesnt kill anything not even a deer let alone a Big Bear and I bet if he was able to get a second shot (But since he short stroked the gun jammed) the Bear Would have been done. A 416 with a 400gr Barnes will kill anything that walks the earth and stop anything you have to put it where it counts!!!

 

[Guest]

Dakor, no wonder he attacked! If I was shot in the nuts, I'd attack too!

Even if the groin shot didn't kill the bear, do you think he wished he was dead?

I would!

 

[dakor]

I hear ya I would have killed anything around me

Like I said it is all shot placement!! I talked to the game and fish this it what they told me to use for Brown Bear nothing smaller than a 30/06 and nothing bigger than a 375 H&H. Now why would they send someone out there with to small of a gun? I told him about my 300 and the load I was using he said it would be fine. Gowge you have some cool pictures with that Rhino charging but why use a 10 bore when you can shoot them in the head with a 375 or 416? I mean if I had a Rhino or Elephant charging me straight on I would not be shooting at center mass I would shoot for there head one shot it is all over and there head is about the size of a Coffee table so it is not like it is small.

 

[Gowge]

Dakor, the brain of a Rhino is very small relative to the size of the animal - and it's protected behind a very thick skull. The elephant brain is not easily hit from the front at all - it's also a relatively small target - about 8" diameter. It doesn't offer an easy shot when the animal is amost on top of you. At the time of that 10bore brochure, there were NO .375s or .416s - it's from the H&H catalog of 1910-1912!

The hunters of that era only had the .577s in a true big game caliber. The smaller calibers were basically just Express Nitro loads of old black powder rounds... I think we can learn a great deal by reading the old books by people like Sir Samuel Baker and others who went out there and killed countless Elephant, Tiger, Rhino, Lion, etc.

One thing that Baker wrote has stuck with me - and that's his comment that some hunters harbor a bit of "contempt" for the game which they hunt and don't use adequate guns for the task. They have nobody but themselves to blame when the animal turns the tables on them - and then, it's too late... A BIG Grizz is nothing to play around with - even average Grizzly are bad enough to kill you and eat you.

This said, the Ol' .577 Express did sling a very heavy 650gr solid slug at 1950fps! I think the new Dixie Slugs' hard cast PREDATOR 12ga (full bore) slug can be loaded to nearly this same velocity with modern components.

I wouldn't leave home without that big .375!

GOOD LUCK & STAY SAFE IN ALASKA!

 

[Guest]

"At the time of that 10bore brochure, there were NO .375s or .416s - it's from the H&H catalog of 1910-1912" I think we are in the year 2004. Bullets and rifles have come a long way since 1912. I think a 30 - 40 cal X bullet in the head will drop it if not kill it.

[ 05-04-2004: Message edited by: Harv ]

 

[Guest]

Harv, my sentiments exactly!

 

[Gowge]

Well, if you think a .375 H&H is enough, then go stand out there in front of a charging Rhino or Elephant and test your theory for the rest of us. The same principles that worked a hundred years ago will still work (or won't work) now. Baker wrote about hunters who were killed because they underestimated the animals they hunted and paid the price for their folly.

Those ol' 10bore guns tossed a 3oz conical bullet at good velocity and had enough power to penetrate thick, hard hide & very heavy bone to reach the vitals of enormous animals.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[trader388]

Personally I like the 416 rigby. You can load it up if you need to. Recoil not bad and 400gr. barnes is deadly. CZ makes a reasonable priced rifle in this caliber.

 

[D.P.]

trader338

Excelent old cartridge, I've wanted one for years. The problem is the .590 bolt face! how is the CZ Magnum action? worth building off of? Are they strong? how do they clean up?

 

[trader388]

looked at the cz american 550 in 375 H&H at my local shop...very nice gun. This type of gun I wouldn't customize much. I wouldn't put a scope on it either. I think my dealer can get them for 675.

 

[ppro]

I think what Gowge says has merit. I grew up around Elmer Keith and Bob Hagle, both interesting guys....neither of whom tended to make assumptions about the really big game they hunted. Both had some close calls and both had a great deal of respect for the big critters. The first bear I shot (when I was a kid) taught me a good lesson. I knew to break down a shoulder as sure as I write this but what did I do? took a heart shot. Standing there at 35 yards watching that bear tear up everything in site for a good 20+ seconds taught me a lesson...I knew with absolute certainty, that if that bear had wanted me, at that distance and armed with a .308 Winchester, that the odds were in it's favor.
The mark of a smart person is one that learns from others mistakes...so why would anyone pick a rifle with anything but a control feed and why would anyone not practice until they were sick of it preparing for a bear hunt....who knows.

I Guess thats what makes life intersting.

If a person goes into the field making
assumptions about how the outcome will be with a grizz, then at least I hope they have the good sense to make sure they have good paid up life insurance and the guts to tell their wife "it's just something I have to do" and greatfully accept the stupid sticker their wife should dutifully place on their forhead before they leave...wills made out etc. Thats the kind and reasonable thing to do for the family anyway.
Seriously though, in my OPINION...when you tangle with the likes of bear...you may go a lifetime and be the winner...and you may not. The best you can prepare may or may not be enough to get you through, so if you cannot accept that possibility, chose to go hunt something like Antelope the the likes...certainly your wife will appreciate it !

Paul

 

[dakor]

So my question is when is enough, enough? I mean do you need to take a 600 Nitro to hunt a Brown Bear? I mean come on I think a 375 H&H has proven it self in the last hundred years that it will kill anything that walks on land and it does it well. The Alaskan G&F recommend a 30/06 or larger and nothing over a 375 H&H now why would they send a bunch of hunters out there under gunned to make more work for themsleves? I think bullet selection and shot placement matter more than anything. Look at a bow how many people have shot Elephant, Rhinos,and Brown Bears with one? You shoot it in the lungs and heart it is going down plain and simple and I dont care what animal it is if you shoot it in the head with a 30cal or bigger it is not going to keep comming like nothing happend when 3000lbs of energy hits something in the head it is going to feel it you dont have to hit the brain shock from the bullets energy is going to cause damage even if the first shot doesnt put the animal down you have time to put another one into it. Now as for the controlled feed what difference does that make a jam is a jam I have a Ruger 220 Swift and I have had to grab the shell with my fingers to get the jam free can someone explain why people think a controlled feed is better?

 

[D.P.]

Hmmmm?
Never shot one but I'm thinking a well placed 06 round would do the trick BUT what if its a 30 yard shot say 5 seconds away and the big sucker goes 30 seconds before dropping???? I think the 06-375H&H has a lot to do with what average hunter can hanle. Next time your at a local range look around at what you see and think what would happen if each person was fireing a .416 As for hunting African DG with a bow I'll stick to watching it on TV. Don't get me wrong I love my 375H&H But when dangerous game charges in Africa there must be a reason the PH hits them with both barrels!!!
Do you trust who your with in the event of a close encounter? (and what they are carrying)
Decisions and consequences.