35 whelen improved fireforming.

[sodakota]

Oh yeh, I also used a .323 expander between the 313 and 338.

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I have a 375 Whelen A.I.
It came with 4 boxes of ammo that was fireformed Lake City 06 brass . That ammo was formed and loaded in the 70s I've visually examined every round and have yet to find a split neck. The person that firmed and loaded these did not anneal the brass. I'm amazed at the quality of this brass.
He was working toward a light weight , fairly compact bear thumper back then. His bear loads were a 350 gr Barnes Original soft nose. He was getting around 2150 fps from the 19" barrel.
I hunt it with the 250 gr TTSX BT @ 2500 fps using H4895.
I have used 35 Whelen RP brass and various 06 brass. As this rifle only has iron sights on it. I can't tell any difference in the accuracy. But, it seems to have identical killing ability to the 338 Win mag with 250 gr bullets at the distances I shoot an iron sighted rifle.
I hope you have good success with your 35 Whelen AI.

 

[TOM H]

Thanks for time and effort Lefty. I must have several hundred 30/06 casings. First thing Monday I will be ordering a set of headspace gauges to see what I am working with. I see Manson offers the improved ones. I have read several places about the 35 Whelen improved not gaining to much over the standard version. Not really concerned about a performance gain with the improved but I have read that the improved version is much easier on the brass ? Any thoughts on this before I order the gauges? Really considering rechambering to standard if this needs addressed. Thanks again

I shoot 35 WhelenAI and gunsmith used Manson reamer and used Kreiger barrel, 1/14 twist @ 24". I fire form Whelen brass. I have 30-06,270,280AI all long throated and WhelenAI I can seat out to 3.500" appr". I've been hunting with 225gr AB.

I've like AI besides WhelenAI I have 243AI,222AI and wildcat 280AI beside spec 280AI.

To me it's had to gauge gain with AI as I shot Rem classic 35 Whelen and it had 1/16 twist barrel @ 22".

 

[jfloyd]

I've always wondered about the sizing up or down of brass be it 308 or 30-06. Since so my cartridges are based on those, how do the factories make the brass. From the production stand point, I would think they would crank out a ton of cases and neck them down to whatever caliber they were making that day. If they are making 308, neck it down to 30 caliber. 7-08, 7mm and so on. How different can it be to expand back up from the smaller diameter. Aside from some drawing effect and needing to be annealed at some point, wouldn't the neck wall thickness end up being pretty darn close regardless? It seems to me they would not be making 6 different case wall thicknesses to make 6 types of brass for 6 different chamberings based on the same parent case. Similar to Starline making 223 basic brass. It's just a straight wall 223 case. Run it through a FL die and load it. Just thinking out loud so please don't take any offense. I have a 338-06 AI BTW, so I am curious to learn as well.

Jon

 

[Edd]

The neck diameter of my Norma brand 35 Whelen brass measures .382" with a Hammer 259 gr bullet installed.

The SAAMI spec for chamber neck diameter is .389". I ordered my reamer with a .386" neck.

 

[Alibiiv]

First, I would NOT be using .30/06 brass. .35 Whelen brass is readily available. Necking .30/06 to .35 will result in the neck walls (of the brass) being thinned, resulting in a sloppy fit in the chamber and a light bullet pull. Chamber neck dimensions are generally quit generous, and you'll be over working the case necks when you re-size them. Proper bullet pull amounts to the tension that is applied to the bullet. How hard is it to "pull" the bullet or in other words how much pressure does it take to push the bullet from the case mouth? Too light a pull, and ignition may suffer. Too heavy a pull and pressure may spike. Both conditions can cause accuracy problems, caused by a large extreme spread in velocity. With .35 Whelen brass, if the chamber is properly head spaced, there should be a slight "crush" felt (a slight resistance) when closing the bolt (if you do this with a .35 Whelen case that is not loaded it is easier to feel. Remove the firing pin so you're not 'feeling' the trigger/cocking piece relationship, and be sure you're not forcing the extractor over the case rim). This indicates that the case is "trapped" between the bolt face and the neck/shoulder junction in the chamber. If this condition exists, as it should, load the .35 Whelen cases as you normally would and fire them. The cases will be fully "improved" as Ackley intended. Accuracy can be very good with fire form loads, so don't waste the opportunity to "put 'her on target". It certainly 'aint rocket science or nuclear engineering. P.O. Ackley designed fire forming to be simple, where factory loaded cartridges can be fired in the improved chamber, and come out in the improved form. If the .35 Whelen cases don't 'crush', there are ways around that.

shortgrass nailed it, that's the proper way of doing it. Right now I am fireforming .270 Ackley Improved from .270 Winchester brass. The first lock up, if it's chambered properly, the bolt will be extremely tough to close, after that closing the bolt becomes easier, however still a bit tight because I am only neck sizing the brass. I'm on my third firing of the brass, once I am done with the third firing I plan on having a custom set of dies made by Whidden and have a hydroform die while I am at it. You can purchase a set of 35 Whelen Ackley Improved made by Redding from Arthur Brown company. Unless I had to, I wouldn't waste time fireforming 30-06 brass. I have done it in the past using regular 30-06 reloads, never had any problems, but again shortgrass is correct with his post. I hunt with a 35 Whelen (bought brass) and really like the cartridge for black bear hunting. The rifle really likes the 225gr Gamekings, I hunt with Barnes 225gr TSX bullets. Don't know what you are hunting, haven't had to track anything as of yet.

https://www.eabco.net/Redding-35-Whelen-Ackley-Improved-40-Degree-Deluxe-3-Die-Set_p_15198.html

 

[Alibiiv]

Thank you. Will have to purchase the appropriate gauges to check the chamber. If there is not a interference fit with new brass would you recommend setting the barrel back and rechambering correctly or using a false shoulder ? Very familiar with that having used on my belted magnums for years. Or do you have other suggestions ? Thanks.

If you don't have the interference in the chamber sometimes you can get away with seating the bullet out until it hits the rifling so that the base of the case is set back against the bolt face allowing the firing pin to hit the primer. I believe that you can do this if the throat of the chamber is not too long. I'm not a gunsmith, don't play one on TV, however I do read a lot of these postings on this forum and did get this from my gunsmith. Or you can purchase hydroform dies from Whidden for around $170. I thought hydroform dies were somewhat expensive until I started messing around fireforming the .270 AI brass. I haven't tried the cream of wheat process because I have been breaking in the barrel as I'm fireforming the brass.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Jamming a pill will work if you can get there... been there, done that... I prefer a false shoulder if I need to form, but a good jamb won't let you down either.

 

[TLS]

Recently acquired a 35 Whelen imp. Long time reloader myself never any fireforming though. My question is could somebody explain to me their process for forming these from 30/06 brass ?

 

[J E Custom]

I've always wondered about the sizing up or down of brass be it 308 or 30-06. Since so my cartridges are based on those, how do the factories make the brass. From the production stand point, I would think they would crank out a ton of cases and neck them down to whatever caliber they were making that day. If they are making 308, neck it down to 30 caliber. 7-08, 7mm and so on. How different can it be to expand back up from the smaller diameter. Aside from some drawing effect and needing to be annealed at some point, wouldn't the neck wall thickness end up being pretty darn close regardless? It seems to me they would not be making 6 different case wall thicknesses to make 6 types of brass for 6 different chamberings based on the same parent case. Similar to Starline making 223 basic brass. It's just a straight wall 223 case. Run it through a FL die and load it. Just thinking out loud so please don't take any offense. I have a 338-06 AI BTW, so I am curious to learn as well.

Jon

Sizing brass from one case to another is not an uncommon practice, But when you don't have to it is better all round. It will have the correct case and neck thickness. If you size down the case wall will thicken. if you size up the case wall will experience thinning.

If you thin a neck wall by sizing up, it will work harden quicker because it will expand more to fit the chamber when fired. the reason for turning is to uniform the wall thickness or to give you a certain amount of clearance for tight neck chambers. So the reason to only turn enough to clean up uneven wall thickness is more even bullet grip and best fit in the chamber.

Manufactures don't have a universal case that can be formed into almost any case, they form a cup with the right size and thickness to form a straight sided case then in the last steps they form the shoulder and neck and end up with the right shape, size and thickness. then they trim the neck to get the correct case length and this length is effected by how thick the neck was when it was in the final sizing. Then if we turn to much, we effect this and brass life suffers.

Often when sizing down a case or the neck, we have to turn in order to get the proper clearance because the neck becomes to thick.

Proper Head stamp is also a safety issue and should be utilized when possible.

J E CUSTOM

 

[TLS]

If you don't have the interference in the chamber sometimes you can get away with seating the bullet out until it hits the rifling so that the base of the case is set back against the bolt face allowing the firing pin to hit the primer. I believe that you can do this if the throat of the chamber is not too long. I'm not a gunsmith, don't play one on TV, however I do read a lot of these postings on this forum and did get this from my gunsmith. Or you can purchase hydroform dies from Whidden for around $170. I thought hydroform dies were somewhat expensive until I started messing around fireforming the .270 AI brass. I haven't tried the cream of wheat process because I have been breaking in the barrel as I'm fireforming the brass.

Recently acquired a 35 Whelen imp. Long time reloader myself never any fireforming though. My question is could somebody explain to me their process for forming these from 30/06 brass ?

The process is not too complicated. If you detect that new .35 Whelen is a little loose, directly fire forming will stretch the case at the head. Run the 35 shells over a 375 expander, then size the expanded neck about half-way leaving a false shoulder in the neck. Load the shell with your beginning load work-up recipe and go to the range. The odd looking rounds may require some aggressivness to chamber - this is good as the shoulder in the neck is holding the base against the bolt face. The finished rounds will be ready to load normally from then on. Typically the improved design will result in less case stretching over many reloads than the original. This is an impressively flat shooting, hard hitting cartridge that pushes hard on the heals of a .338 WM. I have found that 4320 gives the best velocity in the increased capacity of the improved chamber. Good luck, good huntin' and may God bless you and your Ackley richly.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Sizing brass from one case to another is not an uncommon practice, But when you don't have to it is better all round. It will have the correct case and neck thickness. If you size down the case wall will thicken. if you size up the case wall will experience thinning.

rp 35 whelen is a bit prone to cracking; we've lost a few to that. It is also flaky in availability but at present the few online retailers I tried all had at least one brand of whelen brass. Not a lot of reason for the extra work at present.

If you thin a neck wall by sizing up, it will work harden quicker because it will expand more to fit the chamber when fired. the reason for turning is to uniform the wall thickness or to give you a certain amount of clearance for tight neck chambers. So the reason to only turn enough to clean up uneven wall thickness is more even bullet grip and best fit in the chamber.

often yes, but probably not in this case as both the ww 30-06 and rp 35 whelen mics at the same thickness. I've also never lost a formed case- some have 4 or 5 firings on them. They aren't unduly hardened in this case. I'm also not seeing a wall thickness issue with ww brass and the roundness is good with a tapered expander; most whelen dies will come with an elliptical or tapered plug.

Manufactures don't have a universal case that can be formed into almost any case, they form a cup with the right size and thickness to form a straight sided case then in the last steps they form the shoulder and neck and end up with the right shape, size and thickness. then they trim the neck to get the correct case length and this length is effected by how thick the neck was when it was in the final sizing. Then if we turn to much, we effect this and brass life suffers.

Often when sizing down a case or the neck, we have to turn in order to get the proper clearance because the neck becomes to thick.

yup, and this can be a serious issue on custom chambers. not so much on most factory jobs (or saami spec), which are usually rather loose

Proper Head stamp is also a safety issue and should be utilized when possible.

J E CUSTOM

this we can both agree on

 

[TOM H]

I have a 375 Whelen AI. I use both 35 Whelen brass and 30-06 brass. Both work equally well.
However it is more work with the 30-06 brass. My method using '06 brass is as follows. I open the neck in stages: .313,.338,. 358, .375.
When I first formed brass I opened the brass up to .416 and then ran the brass through a FL sizing die. That didn't work as well and I quit doing that.
I have a lot of cast bullets and cheap jacketed seconds. I started using them for fire forming. I finally ended up using full power jacketed loads. These loads fire formed and grouped very well - also they hit same point of impact.

I use Rem 35 Whelen brass and fire form for AI. My Whelen brass length is 2.4880" and neck thickness .0115" to .0130". I decide to form 35 Whelen case using Win 30-06,Rem 280,Rem 270. I opened neck with with 30cal expander, then used 338 expander, then 35 cal expander. I then measure case length ,Win 2.4875",Rem 280 2.4875" and 270 case 2.4880" and I never trimmed case to start or measure them and I never measure neck thickness. The Win about best it varied from .0115" to .0120", the 280 case it varied .0115" to .0130" and 270 case .0130" to .0140". I haven't fire any but just forming, didn't tell they be worst than new 35 Whelen I'm using. If I was really worried about it I would of taken 30-06 Lapua case and formed that. We all seem to forget 35 Whelen was wildcat long before it became spec

 

[jfloyd]

Manufactures don't have a universal case that can be formed into almost any case, they form a cup with the right size and thickness to form a straight sided case then in the last steps they form the shoulder and neck and end up with the right shape, size and thickness. then they trim the neck to get the correct case length and this length is effected by how thick the neck was when it was in the final sizing. Then if we turn to much, we effect this and brass life suffers.

J E CUSTOM

This is the part I always wanted to know. I take you at your word so thank you for the info. I agree completely with using the standard case to fireform in an Ackley chamber. My 280AI and 338-06AI are both chambered correctly in that they will safely fire the standard offering just fine. I love them both!!

Jon