338 or 375 EnABELR or alternative cartridge for ELR hunting

[Taylorbok]

Bartlein can do a 40" so can KS arms up here in Canada but both are larger Diameter so they'd have to be contoured down

 

[QuietTexan]

KS I forgot about, KP was who I remembered.

Didn't know Bartlein could go that long, I'll call them next week.

 

[Tragik]

Won't a 338 LM easily take a coastal brown at 500 yds?

Here's a youtube link of a brown bear being shot with a 225 grain from a 338 RUM at 470 yards (2 hits to the vitals) and the bear chased them down the mountain.



They're lucky to be alive - I believe it was the final round from the 454 casull side arm at 5 yards that put the bear down for good. I would prefer to have 3K+ ft. lbs of energy in 338 or 2.8K+ ft lbs of energy in 375 at impact. The 338 LM achieves this at 500 yards but not much further out.

A 300 win mag at 500 yards is going to be about 2.1K ft lbs of energy. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that little energy with a 300 caliber against a 10 foot brownie.

I'd love to have a 375 but I don't want ELR levels of recoil that comes with the 375 EnABELR. That's why I'm leaning toward a 338. I didn't realize the Terminator requires the purchase of a rifle. No doubt they're great rifles but a bit out of my price range. I'll further look into a 338 Norma Imp or 338 Lapua Imp if I do a custom build. Otherwise, I'll just be cheap and get a savage elite precision (or another cheap out-of-box option) in 338 Lapua.

 

[Huntnful]

Here's a youtube link of a brown bear being shot with a 225 grain from a 338 RUM at 470 yards (2 hits to the vitals) and the bear chased them down the mountain.



They're lucky to be alive - I believe it was the final round from the 454 casull side arm at 5 yards that put the bear down for good. I would prefer to have 3K+ ft. lbs of energy in 338 or 2.8K+ ft lbs of energy in 375 at impact. The 338 LM achieves this at 500 yards but not much further out.

A 300 win mag at 500 yards is going to be about 2.1K ft lbs of energy. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that little energy with a 300 caliber against a 10 foot brownie.

I'd love to have a 375 but I don't want ELR levels of recoil that comes with the 375 EnABELR. That's why I'm leaning toward a 338. I didn't realize the Terminator requires the purchase of a rifle. No doubt they're great rifles but a bit out of my price range. I'll further look into a 338 Norma Imp or 338 Lapua Imp if I do a custom build. Otherwise, I'll just be cheap and get a savage elite precision (or another cheap out-of-box option) in 338 Lapua.

That was 0 hits to the vitals. All well in front of the shoulder. An actual shot to the vitals would have that bear sliding down the hill within a minute.

But I like your style. Bigger is better for killing anything really lol.

 

[Tragik]

That was 0 hits to the vitals. All well in front of the shoulder. An actual shot to the vitals would have that bear sliding down the hill within a minute.

But I like your style. Bigger is better for killing anything really lol.

Hah! I normally prefer a slightly slower cartridge for a given caliber for more barrel life, especially if it has a bit more accuracy, which is why I was dead set on the 338 Norma for a while. But I want this rifle to have some serious power - just not 338/375 EnABLER level of power recoil.

 

[Huntnful]

Hah! I normally prefer a slightly slower cartridge for a given caliber for more barrel life, especially if it has a bit more accuracy, which is why I was dead set on the 338 Norma for a while. But I want this rifle to have some serious power - just not 338/375 EnABLER level of power recoil.

Haha I agree!! I feel weird shooting any caliber less than 3000fps for some reason

 

[yobuck]

Years back Dan Lilja of Lilja barrels did a test on barrel length and velocity.
Seems to me he started out with a 40" barrel, and shortened it as he went along with the test.
They might be a source for a barrel that long, and should also have some input on the value of it.
For sure you need one long enough to burn all the powder, but then there are so many different powders today.
But that also dosent mean that the very old powder is no longer usefull.
Again, years ago say 50, Howard Wolfe was building 30x378s on his actions and using 36" barrels. But he wouldnt build you a gun unless you had H570 powder to use in it.
It was a WW2 surplus powder, and not very easy to locate due to people hoarding it.
When Bruce Baer built my rifle he told me to load the 300 gr Sierra to an oal of 4". and he told me where to start with BMG 50 powder.
Later he asked me how much H570 i still had, and he then said dont be afraid to use that, because thats what im using in mine.
So there you go, were talking about powder thats at least 75 years old.

 

[longrangebo]

Years back Dan Lilja of Lilja barrels did a test on barrel length and velocity.
Seems to me he started out with a 40" barrel, and shortened it as he went along with the test.
They might be a source for a barrel that long, and should also have some input on the value of it.
For sure you need one long enough to burn all the powder, but then there are so many different powders today.
But that also dosent mean that the very old powder is no longer usefull.
Again, years ago say 50, Howard Wolfe was building 30x378s on his actions and using 36" barrels. But he wouldnt build you a gun unless you had H570 powder to use in it.
It was a WW2 surplus powder, and not very easy to locate due to people hoarding it.
When Bruce Baer built my rifle he told me to load the 300 gr Sierra to an oal of 4". and he told me where to start with BMG 50 powder.
Later he asked me how much H570 i still had, and he then said dont be afraid to use that, because thats what im using in mine.
So there you go, were talking about powder thats at least 75 years old.

Hey buddy I still have about 11-12 pounds HaHaHa

 

[Hand Skills]

That was 0 hits to the vitals. All well in front of the shoulder. An actual shot to the vitals would have that bear sliding down the hill within a minute.

This video was tough to watch. The shooting starts around 17min, but I simply couldn't continue past 18:30 where you could hear the shooter blowing on his action to 'warm it up'.

Think of blowing on an optical lense - typically it will fog up with the condensation from your breath.

The same thing happens to metal - if the metal is cold enough, it will freeze the condensation creating MORE ICE.

I'm glad that these hunters made it home safely, and hopefully others can learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps I'm being a bit judgemental here, but provoking a bear and then making a video titled

'WE SURVIVED A BEAR ATTACK'

...just seems a bit disingenuous to me.

Reminds me of a saying I like to remember from time to time;

"The first shot is worth all the rest."

 

[Mike Matteson]

Been there, done that. I have a 34", but no straight shanks larger than a 1.250". No need for bigger in a 6mm

But after three calls and rooting through several websites I can't find anyone willing/able to make a 40". 36" seems to be the max for everyone right now. If you know of a barrel maker that can make a 40" shout them out and I'll call them.

Sure you don't need a bigger stick?

 

[Sid Post]

Is 2900FPS versus 3000FPS in a .338/300gr really much of a difference in shooting elk, moose, and bears? Which would you kill with 3000FPS that you wouldn't with 2900FPS?

At any range you can ethically shoot, a good .338/300gr bullet will do the job if driven at a reasonable velocity.

There are many options with a .338, 300gr bullet, and a 28"~30" barrel to get close to what you want. The real question is if 2900FPS isn't enough and 3100FPS is too much, what is driving such a narrow range of velocity?

Personally, I tend to lean towards the modern 338 Norma but, a 338 Edge or similar easy-wildcat would be easy enough for most people. Personally, among people I know, I find the FPS is a "mine is bigger than yours" most of the time and missing the point about hunting EFFECTIVENESS. Now I would not take a 338WM to Alasaka personally but, a modern beltless 338RUM and similar variants will all get the job done if you don't take a classic 375H&H. The factory boutique Noslers, PRCs, and similar things like the 338-378WBY don't really appeal to me with limited brass supply and proprietary features and in some cases really short barrel life.

How much extra hassle and extra expense is 100FPS worth? 200FPS? I get this is ELR and you don't want a 'rainbow' trajectory but, at some point, the weight and bulk of the rifle with its support gear (good tripod and big optics) to me take away from the experience of the hunt.

 

[Sid Post]

Here's a youtube link of a brown bear being shot with a 225 grain from a 338 RUM at 470 yards (2 hits to the vitals) and the bear chased them down the mountain.

They're lucky to be alive - I believe it was the final round from the 454 casull side arm at 5 yards that put the bear down for good.

It would have helped if they put the bullet into a shoulder or the vitals.

A miss with a rifle you can't handle is worse than a solid hit with a lesser caliber.

If Bell could kill Elephants with a 7x57, why can't we kill a Brownie with a 338RUM?

Regarding the YouTube, I'd call that "clickbait" mostly. But, it also suggests why I personally would carry a 375H&H in a ~9# rifle weight but, I also won't be shooting Brownies at 500 yards either.

 

[azsugarbear]

I have a 338 Allen Express (338 Lapua Improved) based off a Stiller TAC 338 action. With a 26" barrel and 104 gr. of RL33, the rifle easily drives a 300 gr. Berger at 2950 fps. If you are willing to go 30" on your barrel, I suspect you will hit/exceed your 3000 fps goal at the muzzle.

 

[yobuck]

Is 2900FPS versus 3000FPS in a .338/300gr really much of a difference in shooting elk, moose, and bears? Which would you kill with 3000FPS that you wouldn't with 2900FPS?

At any range you can ethically shoot, a good .338/300gr bullet will do the job if driven at a reasonable velocity.

There are many options with a .338, 300gr bullet, and a 28"~30" barrel to get close to what you want. The real question is if 2900FPS isn't enough and 3100FPS is too much, what is driving such a narrow range of velocity?

Personally, I tend to lean towards the modern 338 Norma but, a 338 Edge or similar easy-wildcat would be easy enough for most people. Personally, among people I know, I find the FPS is a "mine is bigger than yours" most of the time and missing the point about hunting EFFECTIVENESS. Now I would not take a 338WM to Alasaka personally but, a modern beltless 338RUM and similar variants will all get the job done if you don't take a classic 375H&H. The factory boutique Noslers, PRCs, and similar things like the 338-378WBY don't really appeal to me with limited brass supply and proprietary features and in some cases really short barrel life.

How much extra hassle and extra expense is 100FPS worth? 200FPS? I get this is ELR and you don't want a 'rainbow' trajectory but, at some point, the weight and bulk of the rifle with its support gear (good tripod and big optics) to me take away from the experience of the hunt.

Well used for long range hunting only, i would agree with you.
Fact is that we really dont need any 338 for most long range hunting.
As ive mentioned here i do have a large 338, and the difference
between it and those with less powder capacity is easily seen by watching as they are being shot at long distance.
But reality is that there will be very few if any times in your life that the need for that is necessary when actually hunting.
Yes, you can cherry pick some locations where those type shots are very possible.
Provided you see something to shoot at.
Which raises another question, that being the optics used to find them.
And the number of days during a season where the conditions will be such that even permit that, arent in your favor to begin with. Even with the very best optics.